"I sometimes wonder what would have happened if one-tenth of the effort put into vote campaiging today had been spent on campaiging for the freedom of Ganji, Zarafshan, and their colleagues, or indeed, for that matter, for the true freedom and the true democracy in Iran. Would they still elude us?" ... And I wonder what is wrong with intellectuals of Iran although I am agianst elitism and intellectualism. But that's a different story for a different day. No country in the world has achieved democracy for the sake of democracy and freedom of speech. Stop philosophizing things. Revolutions and evolutions started by much more earthly causes than philosophical concepts. You can't bring a nation together just for democracy specially you can't bring a nation together on empty stomach. Again, I don't know what I will do on Friday, but your logics is simply flawed, and that makes me... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I didn't get Babak's logic. Who says we should ignore Rafsanjani's crimes, or Ganji's situation, or corruption of the elections in Iran? Exactly for these reasons we need to vote and encourage others to vote: If ahmadinejad's group dominates the last part of government not yet controled by fundamentalists, we may easily see that: - Ganij will die in prison, and nobody can say anything. (of course you and me can condomn from the other side of the world, but so what?) - Next election... there will be none. This one is corrupted by 2 million votes, the next one they will get anybody out of the box (which they couldn't do when Khatami got elected, or if there is a margine of 2-3 million for Hashemi this time). - Criticizing Rafsanjani... well you might be able to do that under Ahmadinejad, but you will be jailed for saying... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Babak, I agree with you completely (as must be clear by now). Thanks for reminding about Ebadi. I was pretty harsh on her, for good reasons that still hold. But to her credit I have to say here as well, thaht unlike many, she has been taking many right stances, especially by focusing her attention towards releasing the prisoners, amidst all this noise and stinking hypocracies that is covering around us all. That's it. I am finally out of here!
Babak S, I thought the outcome of the election would teach you a lesson or two. Alas, you proved me wrong, still beating hard on the same old drum. A very very very very *large* number of Iranians voted for AhmadiNejad. Millions of them, indeed. Also, a very very very very large number of Iranians voted for Hashemi. Obvious moral: At the time being, Iranians, by and LARGE, do not care all that much for the values you (and Ganji) are tearing yourself apart for. This is a simple fact. It will take years and years and years of teaching and preaching the ideals you rightly believe in for them to be accepted by Iranians. Unlike you, *most* Iranians, that is a lot more than half of them, have never been exposed to democratic ideals, or if they have, they have been "ill-exposed" to them. Conclusion: It is way... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Let me rephrase (or repeat) myself. It may be worth it. Before the election, we didn't have a clear idea of the "political demography" of Iranians. Now we do, even though the election results may not have been quite accurate, but they are plus/minus a small percentage, which doesn't make a difference in what I am trying to conclude. It takes a lot more than a minority of people who are able to argue "rationally" for a democracy to start. For starters, just look at Moin. Poor Mr. Moin was reformist camp's *highest hope*. This has a name in Persian: GHAHTORREJAAL. No ready people combined with no good leadership simply means no democracy. Iranian, as this election have shown us so plainly, lack the *capacity* for having their country run democratically. They. Are. Not. Ready. Do not be deluded by what "high-brow" publications in Iran have been saying all... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I totally agree with SG. Iran is a closed society that has remained as a suprise even to Iranians. All societies have different types of mentalists some of them totally contradicting each other. Iran is no exception. In democracies these differences are constantly brought up and so some of them are smoothed over in the process. But in a country like Iran, every individual sees what is just around him not farther than that. So we may have suprises from time to time to learn that someone else with a totally different viewpoint is also Iranian. WAKE UP PEOPLE: Iran has many many poor people, people who have different values than you guys. They have differnt priorities than you guys. And they are no less Iranian than you, guys. They are part of Iran, as monarchists are, as pro-reformers are, as every body else is. I bet many of... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
itchy, I won't have time for detailed rebuttals for a while, but for now it seems you have completely missed the point: these are not arguments for a boycott, but issues I do not want to see gone and forgotten. (Although the natural suggestion that is consistent with the view I take in raising these issues is indeed a nonviolent movement instead of wasting our time in the circus show called elections in the Islamic Republic.) For now, "be warned" not to forget these...
Care for another analogy? Here you go: A guy (let's call him Asghar Jangi) is sitting in a cell with only a small hole in the wall that makes it possible for him to breathe. Instead of trying to keep that little hole open to survive, he cries out loud for closing that little hope. His argument: I like to become free RIGHT NOW. If I close the hole, then people from outside who care for human rights will rush to my cell to save and free me. Poor Asghar. True, his current situation is not comparable to living a free life in a mansion on top of a hill with a great view, but at least there *is* hope for him to one day become free. No? P.S. Don't take this analogy out of its context. Have it with my previous comments above.
Babak S, you wrote to me in some other comment (and I am not gonna follow that discussion thread cause it is a bit outdated) that I keep comparing Iran with some other countries that are democratic. Well, I guess you shouldn't raise methods that have worked for other countries either. "...with the view I take in raising these issues is indeed a nonviolent movement" Non-violent movement may have worked for India that had a mellow enemy (as opposed to our brutal one) with strong Anglo-Saxon liberalism background in its psyche. They were practical enough (even unlike the French) to volunteerly give up once they realized a wave is turning against them. If mullahs acknowledged that Ganji (for example) is a great man (like the way the British acknowledged that Ghandi was a great man) and they made a movie in his honour, I'd say things are ripe for... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
If I had the free time, energy, or just the patience to show the likes of our SG here why they are blurring out nonsense I could have pointed out that Afghanis, after all the war and Taliban and much much fewer educated masses have a democratci government, with women in the cabinet and a totally free press. Just as one example. But I did want to get on with my life and as a principle I never argue with dellusional, self-appointed intellectual, retarded idiots. pity.
F***! That's you vision for Iran? Another Afghanistan?!
So what are you guys trying to achieve by not voting? What would happen? Do you think the government would just pack up and leave?
Yes, SG, at the end of the day, people like AIS do want to make another Afghanistan out of Iran. With even the U.S. hardliners admitting that all is not well either in Afghanistan or Iraq, the likes of AIS want us to lead us down that same sorry road. This is why it is more urgent than ever to make sure that even the slightest ray of hope, as you put it, are followed or else we will find ourselves in an even bigger dump.
Babak S: Who said we want to forget Rafsanjani's crimes? We have not changed our minds about Rafsanjani; he is the same person he used to be. But I still advocate for voting for him, because I see the prospect of having Ahmadi Nejad as the president much more black. Also, you say the road to democracy in Iran doesn't go through supervised elections. You might be right, but the reason I think we should vote for Hashemi is not to achieve democracy with him; it's too keep the personal freedoms that were gained during the past 10 years. AIS: Are you seriously proposing Afghanistan as a good model for Iran? Do you think the fact that there are several women in Afghanistan's cabinet and there are none in Iran shows that women are more free in Afghanistan?
SG's analogies (and expletives) sound very appropriate to me. I wish I could know who he is.
Mohammad Mahdian, I am talking about Afganistan's government structure, not the society or its present condition. This government structure allows freedom of press, women in high positions, free elections. In short it is a democracy and thaht is despite the fact that Afghanistan as a society is in such ruins. It is precisely this contrast that I am talking about. That's my point. You see anything wrong in what I say?
AIS- I for one see much wrong in what you say. How can you just talk about the government structure without any attention to what is happening on-the-ground to the people of Afghanistan. They--and especially the women--are not much better off. And even the government itself has no shortage of problems. One of the many complaints against it is that it is not at all an inclusive government. The fact that almost all of the top posts have gone to Pashtuns is not very democratic now is it? Many Afghans--who as you know are a very diverse people--have pointed this discrepancy out. And this is just one of the many problems with the government structure, as you call it.
this is the vote fraud of the century, hashemi is nothing but the same as ahmadinejad, same bullshit, same brutallity, same lies.
I don't see any point anymore talking about who is doing what. Boycotters (I am proudly one of them) have their reasons, which they have discussed many times, and people who like to vote have their reasons. Everyone seems to be repeating himself or herself. I invite all of you to read Abbas Ma'roufi's weblog to see another side of story from boycotters' side. Anyway, Afghanistan, Iran, France, Canada, or anywhere else in the world, if the elections are fraud, I won't vote. (By the way, do people believe that Afghan women have the same situation as they had in Taliban's time? Do you really believe it, or is it your anti-American sentiment that causes this illogical behavior?)
Shabnam, I hope ther were more people willing to boycot the election. dont vote out of fear. this is all a planned thing by the mullahs to bring rafsanjani to power.
visit my blog for more info. why u should boycott the election.
Some more thoughts (and "expletives"! Thank you, OL.) Niki: It was a Freudian slip, I swear, when I said "closing that little hope". I meant to say "hole". My analogy is flawed. It's just an analogy after all. Just to be clear, by Asghar Jangi, I meant the entirety of the Iranian nation. One person *may* have the right to kill himself, but one person does not have the right to recommend the Afghanistanization of Iran for all Iranians. In my opinion, democracy has much deeper roots in Iran than it is in Afghanistan and any other Arab country (perhaps with the exception of Lebanon). And this is partly thanks to the semi-free press that we have had during the brighter times in our recent history. Both Afghanistan and Iraq have a long way to go. Back to the analogy: Asghar has a file and if he is wise... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I don't agree with SG and some other commenters regarding lack of readiness of Iranians for democracy and freedom. People have many priorities in their life including having a job, having good income, good education for children as well as having freedom. Many of people in Iran understand that the real and significant improvement of all these things can come if the political situation would change. But since they have become so hopeless about the change of political situation, they have blocked out the political issues from their mind and now only focus on things that more achievable. This hopelessness has also made them to a large extent gullible and succeptible to believing people like Karubi or Ahmadinejad who promise some economical remedies. The moment that people believe that there is an actual chance of changing the political situation, their mood will change. At the moment they are very... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Folks, Wake up and smell the coffe. The world is run by pragmatic people who think rationally not by those who sit on the fences and wait to jump in when their ideals come true. These people live in their world of fantacies and you know what. Nobody takes them seriously. I am an undecided as i have said before. What is keeping me from voting Rafsanjani is not a bunch of poetic nonesenses. Here are two articles that have worded my concern for a vote for Rafsanjani much more efficiently than I could put it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/story/2005/06/050622_a_z_election.shtml http://roozonline.com/02article/008034.shtml In a nutshell, these, by the same author, outline why a Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad's administration will not be practically that far off.
SG: "In my opinion, democracy has much deeper roots in Iran than it is in Afghanistan and any other Arab country" What do you mean any other Arab country? Neither Iran nor Afghanistan is Arab countries. Right now, I have heard a talk from an Iranian professor, who lives in Iran. (" Not living in Iran" seems to be the base of some people's judgment about our boycott: "you don't live in Iran, so shut up and vote", so this professor living in Iran may make his views more acceptable for some people). Anyway, this professor, who lives in Iran, was also a boycotter, who said that the reason he is boycotting is that he doesn’t see any difference between Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad (yea, he was brave enough to admit that), and he said, and I agree, that putting Ahmadinejad with rafsanjani in the same camp for second round... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Niki, this is a bit late for a reply, but I say it anyway. See hwta the topic of discussion was then jump in. A genius among us made a very very very very very stupid assertion that we should not expect anything better than the likes of Rafsanjani because Iranians in general are only this much democratic and deserve no better for a long long time to come. I mad an obviou scounter example of Afganistan with all the problems taht you mention that has a much much much much much much more democratic constitution (or whatever it is they have till now) and laws than we do, while their society is more behind than ours. there are many other such examples to give. That this government structure is not yet perfect or is not implemented yet fully is not the point. I agree with Shabnam , we... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Just a comment, Shirin Ebadi as you said is a principled lawyer. However politics is not about principles. So what she says about election is not important. We should thank her for focusing on human right issues.
I wonder what all of you advocating not voting would say if by your non-actions Iran ends up in a war where thousands might die and countless more would suffer?? Is that Free Thinking?? Why is reality is so hard to grasp?? C'mon Open your eyes, smell the coffee, Any election would make a difference and so does this one. I wonder if any of you ever made anything with your hands, sometimes you have to make with what you have and not what you wish you had!! I just hope you are the minority and this non-voting does not result in bloodshed and violence that we don't need.
Shabnam, Sorry. Believe me, I know Iran is not an Arab country. I must have meant to say "In my opinion, democracy has much deeper roots in Iran than it has in Afghanistan and in Iraq and any other Arab country", referring to Iraq. Thanks for pointing that out.
Mehdi Y. What's the core of your argument (for Iranian being ready for democracy), if you are in fact offering one? What you say about Iranian is just a *possible* explanation of what happened last Friday. Even if I agree that it is a *plausible* explanation, then it doesn't change my conclusion. That at least 25 million Iranians either do not care *enough* about what the likes of Babak S hold so dear (such as human rights, individual freedom, the right to run for presidency, equal rights for women, etc.), or are simply too un-educated to realize that they have priority. Okay, this came out too harsh. I, who have the time and can afford the luxury of sitting here and write in a website with few visitors, should try very hard to feel the pain of the poor Iranian who doesn't have the minimum of what a human... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
And I will vote for Hashemi tomorrow, not because I think he will be a good caring gardener for the plant that will bear all the good fruit for Iran. But because I think at least he'll give gardeners a little chance to fertilize the soil (which more or less means changing our culture) and slowly, but surely prepare Iran for a full-fledged democracy. I am not expecting this to happen in the next 4 or 8 years, but by defeating someone who I'm afraid may tie up the hands of gardeners, I can at least hope that 40 years from now there will be a tree that we can be proud of.
Yaser K, I am afraid we are talking about different meanings of the word "politics." For an academic (hence as a science), politics is all about principles. For a private citizen too, politics is about ways of life, and hence all about principles. For a political activist too politics is about principles since otherwise there will be no grounds left for the activism in question. I guess you are taking the very narrow meaning (yet commonly used in everyday speech) of the word that is concerned with the tactics of gainging and keeping political power by a politician or group of politicians. I am not talking about this.
Babak S, I have long admired your keen intellect and you fairness, but it makes me uncomfortable when you talk about "principles"... See if these words ring any bell: "I can simply go about my business, and shrug the ‘No’ and the finger off my shoulder."
SG, It is not very wise, nor very useful, to take a sentence out of its context from a non-analytic piece and throw it in a totally irrelevant discussion. What are you trying to say? That I was annoyed and depressed so I have no principles? What was exactly the principle that was abandoned here, if you please? In the meantime, just look at the next paragraph in the same piece you quote, to see where I stand with my principles. I also corrected a possible implication of that writing in the comments. Please read again, my Senior!
On what "politics" is. Just read the first paragraph.
The hidden hand of FToI removed the quotes around Ahmad Sadri's name. (I guess they were placed to signify that Ahmad himself didn't write that comment.) I wish I could remove the quotes from around the word "politics", because I happen to agree with what Ahmad says, and that *is* politics. For those of you who can't read Persian, here's a somewhat related essay by the same person, just to give you a taste: http://www.iranian.com/AhmadSadri/2005/June/Elections2/index.html
1) I think people are dying out of hunger and you are warning people of fatty diet. Your warnings are quite negligible comparing to the real warning which you miss to mention. And that is UN sanction and possible US invasion by coming of Ahmadinejad. 2) Just wondering why one percent of the people who boycott (18 milions boycott) don't try to campaign for freedom of Zarafshan and Ganji? 3) Who says Iran is as democrat as France?? There was an anology that sometimes for the fear of Fascism you have to vote to someone who is not ideal and in that sense Iran's current situation is much like France. That's it. Not quite clear what you laugh at? 4) Again who says "Fascism in Iran ends with Ahmadi Nejad's defeat"?? We say that total Fascism will come with Ahmadinejad victory. These are very different. Unless you say Rafsanjani... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
All I know is, Ahmadinejad scares the crap out of me and I hope for the sake of the world he doesn't become your next president. I'm pretty depressed about the elections, and I'm sitting halfway around the world.
The elections in Afghanistan only concern Karzai, who in effect is only the mayor of Kabul - the warlords control the rest of Afghanistan. And in his de facto role as mayor, he is largely controlled by the US ambassador Khalilzad: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=8135 Democracy can only happen in Afghanistan if the warlords are disarmed and some alternative military/police presence comes into being - it will also require effective communication among anti-authoritarians/democrats. But the US occupation is supporting warlords - not only is it not removing the warlords, but it is supporting them. Iran has been independent from UK/US since 1979 - it's only continued struggle for human rights and democracy from within (plus international communication support, but nothing imposed, and certainly not US bombs) that can lead to continued evolution. Suggesting Afghanistan as an example democracy to follow is absurd. In any case, surely it's best we hear the opinion... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
blah blah blah still more nonsense leftist blah
Don't you love ACLU? Let me play a little bit ACLU here. ACLU defends all categories of people from KKK to blacks.....So let me defend my past antagonizer here. What AIS is saying is the structure of the Afghanistan government, the set up and the framework in which it operates. This has nothing to do with the culture on the ground. In fact recently there has been a rash of Afghan women committing suicide by burning themselves. Majority of these women are the ones who have moved from Iran to Afghanistan to find out they have been back to a cultural hell. But still, this can not be used to refute AIS's argument that Afghanistan has a more democratic government than Iran and a totally free media, it is irrelevant. However this argument that Afghan political system is more open and more democratic than let say Iran needs to... [more at the permalink of the entry above]