Hi Eswin, Thanks for bringing up this topic. I have a question for you which might not be very related to persians. Please tell me if Azeri people living in Iran and Azerbayjan have the same origin with the tribes you've indicated as Indo-Iranics. Is it true that Azaris have different roots from turkish people living in turkey? You may guess that an Azrai Iranian can be more curious about this!

This is going to be as long as a post, but I felt compelled to respond. Fereshteh (a very Iranik name indeed): I appreciate your encouraging comments and the question. First of all, allow me to attach a disclaimer that such studies are like detective work and much of the evidence is a combination of archaeological artefact tracing, linguistic studies, and cross-examination of old histories. As new evidence is found, we have to revise these findings, but for one thing the present governmetn of Iran has shown no interest in such issues and as a result the study of ancient Iranik languages and extensive archeological studies have been weakened, if not put on hold, in this area for the past 25 years. The short response is that a majority of our today Azeris are indeed the descendents of Median (Maads), Sythians, and Parthians. One should not exaggerate the impact... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Eswin, I am completely impressed by your knowledge about the history of Iraniks. I do really appreciate your effort to clear me about this matter. Now I got the idea what my roots are coming from. Quite interesting and fascinating! P.S. Of course I read all of it and I enjoyed every bit of it. Thanks a lot cousin:-)Sagolasan!

That was avery informative article Eswin, thanks. One question on my part. First of all I didn't know that Sarmatians were related to Iranic tribes. (or that any such people existed at all!) It is quite some coincidence but I just saw the film "King Arthur" (it was a well made interesting film) which tries to depict a possible choice for the historical origin of the Arthurian legend, based on current archealogical theories. In the film the origin of the Nights of the Round Table (except Arthur himself) are (pagan) Sarmatians who fought for the Roman Empire. Do you know anything about any such connection? Some links: Movie's official webpage Insomnia preview of "King Arthur" Here are also some scholarly articles about the possible Sarmatian link to Arthur: Sarmatian-Magyar connection and the Holy Grail From Scythia to Camelot Lucius Artorius Castus

Dear Eswin, Thank you very much for openning this debate. I have some comments: 1. By the time of Parthian and Sassanid kings, the majority of Iranian people were settled, as urban trades people or as rural peasents. Using the term "tribe" may not be a very accurate choice for settled people, as this term is usually used for nomads. 2. I also add another factor to linguistic substitution during Mongol rule and later principalities: nomads produce high value added food stuffs (diary products, meat, ...) and two important commodities, wool and raw hide. Compared to these products, peasants produce lower valued food stuffs (veggies and grains). In the exchange (say barter), the nomads have two advantages: military power (by being organized in tribes) and more expensive goods. The peasants may learn very fast to immitate their language to get inside information, and also appear as an insider. A... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

The anti-Iranian angle in some of the political rhetoric heard now a days, is relatively new. It would be nice to discuss it in detail. To be very nice, this rhetoric lacks intellectual foundations. You have to play fast and loose with historical, political, economic, and social facts to reach the type of conclusions that some of these people put forth.

Dear all, As you all see, I have been on the Internet for too long for the past 48 hours. I will gradually respond to the questions by the weekned. But please wait for the second and third posts to come. Because they may include some answers to your questions. Fereshteh, I will have my respond to you more substantiated soon, but you will find the second post interesting. AIS, there were people called Sarmatians and they are Iranics, I will get back to you on that soon. Mohammad, your point about Roman recruiting practices is correct, however, you may be interested to know that Marcus Aurelius captured 5400 Sarmatians in the Marcomanic war, and indeed sent them to Britain. The more interesting issue that shows you already know something about the topic, which is very encouraging and I am very happy for your, is that they were captured... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Freshteh read "Ya Zaban Bastan Azarbaygan: Azari : Or the National Language of Azarbaijan" you'll find the answer to some parts of your question there. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936347317/qid=1090532658/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/002-7542259-3065648?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I'm waiting for your subsequent articles. I have another question as well. Were the Khazars also related to Scythians or other Iranic people?

I think I can answer the Khazar question. Strictly speaking, Khazars were a Turkic people (their language was related to Chuvash language spoken in parts of Russian Federation today). It is quite possible that when they conquared the Northern parts of Caucasus and Volga region, they absorbed what remained of Scythian and Sarmatian population by that time. Archeological and historical evidence points to the fact that Khazar kingdom was indeed a confederation of many people and tribes. It included proto-Hungarians, Bulgars, Crimean Goths, Osetians, Slavs, and numerous Turkic tribes. But Khazars, as the ruling clan, were Turkic, not Iranic. There were intermarriages (especially between Byzantine and Khazar royal families) and Khazars sacked Azarbaijan several times and naturally enslaved many people, including women. But the culture and the government followed Turkic patterns, not Iranic.

Thanks Mohammad for the info. What still is unclear to me is who teh Turkic tribes were accurately. I know they are from the east, the anatoly(?) mountains and related to Mongolians... but not accuaretly enough. For example what is the relation between turkic people and the Chinese or Koreans or Japanese? I'd appreciate any information there.

The claim of connections of Iranians to other Indo-European tribes is largely misleading. The loose linguistic connections do not amount to much and have almost no relevance to today's realities of Iran. I think Iranians need to reconsider what they are going to tell their children as their history. Iran's history has to be written by focusing on where Iran is now and who lives in it (farss, turks, kurds, arabs...). With no force to conform Turks or Kurds to some sort of Aryan tribes who went disarray or changed their language. Iranians today have a strong sense of nationhood and an ethno-centric history can only be source of a problem. Under what I suggest, Iranians can still celebrate the cultural influence of "Aryans", Turks, and Arabs. This new paradigm can also remove racism among some Iranians against Arabs and Turks and bring more security for Iran by helping... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Excuse me but what is this thing with racism now? Is this the new trend? Neither Iranian, scythian, arab, turk, or this mythical 'aryan' are a 'race'. Neither can Iranians be called racist. Religious yes, a bit too much, but racist I don't accept. Just because there are jokes around or similar trivialities doesn't mean anything. All other people have that as well. If you want Racism see what Arabs are doing in Sudan. I ask you or any other to give ONE instanc eof such a behaviour by Iranians based on 'racial' or 'ethnic' grounds. The thing about Sarmatians in these theories (and since I have no background knowledge I don't know how reliable they arer...they seem to be quite controversial) that interested me was the shared mythology. Mythology of course is still very present, in more subtle and indirect ways and is an integral part of each... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

AIS, search for "khazar" on freethoughts website from the main page.

Dear AIS, Again, I can give you some leads, but not a whole history here: Turkic languages are related to Korean, Mongol, Yatut, and Tunguz languages of Noethern Asia and Siberia. They are "linguistically", but not "racially" related to Ural-Altaic family of lnguages. Some turkic speaking people have clear Far Eastern features (Turkmens, Kirgiz, Bashkir, and Kazakhs) and some share mediterranean features (Turks of Turkey, Azaris, Turks of Balkans). It is a common mistake to mix linguistic differences with racial background. For example, we do not have anything called Turkish, Arab or Iranian "race", but we have the aforementioned languages. Linguistic distinction may (or may not) cause cultural distinction. What we call Turkish tribes, were the people that at some time or other were members of Oguz confederation. This confederation of tribes (12 tribes) used to live on the far side of river Oxus in Central Asia by 7th... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Dear AIS, Again, I can give you some leads, but not a whole history here: Turkic languages are related to Korean, Mongol, Yatut, and Tunguz languages of Noethern Asia and Siberia. They are "linguistically", but not "racially" related to Ural-Altaic family of lnguages. Some turkic speaking people have clear Far Eastern features (Turkmens, Kirgiz, Bashkir, and Kazakhs) and some share mediterranean features (Turks of Turkey, Azaris, Turks of Balkans). It is a common mistake to mix linguistic differences with racial background. For example, we do not have anything called Turkish, Arab or Iranian "race", but we have the aforementioned languages. Linguistic distinction may (or may not) cause cultural distinction. What we call Turkish tribes, were the people that at some time or other were members of Oguz confederation. This confederation of tribes (12 tribes) used to live on the far side of river Oxus in Central Asia by 7th... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

any volunteer for writing the letter, dear activists? (hope you remember from elementary school litrature that "do sad gofte con nim kerdaar nist"!)

Regarding Mr Yahya's comments, I really do not get the point. Over 75% of people living in Iran today, speak an Indo-European language. They also have mediterranean (or caucasian) features. I do not understand how you claim that linguistic links between Iranians and other Indo-Europeans are "loose" since Iranian languages are one of the main branches of this linguistic tree. Also, as far as I know Iran has always been where it is now (moving land around is rather tough you see), so what do you mean by rewriting the history with regard to wre Iran is now? Kurds are a Indo-European people and their language is the second major Iranic language after Persian. No one has ever tried to consider Turkish as Indo-European. Probably what you are refering to is the debate about languages spoken in Eastern Anatoly, Arran, and Azarbaijan before predominance of Turkic dialects. It is... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Yahya- I could have not disagreed more with your views on the Iranian history. History, by definition, is the study of past eras. It makes absolutely no sense to focus on present social climate and work the history backwards (unless one wants to forge history!), with the excuse of political correctness. Just because some take advantage of racial and ethnic differences among people for idealogic and/or political causes, that does not mean studying the origin of various ethnicities is a harmful act. Should we condemn physics for leading to the development of nuclear weapons and abandon research in nuclear physics altogether in a similar fashion?? Universities and research institutions spend billions to investigate the origin of life, evolution and biologic diversity, mainly to understand where we, as the human species, have come from? What is wrong with learning the origin of various cultures and civilizations? We Iranians as a... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Thanks Mohammad for all the information. I have to admit that I know very little of these parts of history, a defection that I am very eager to remove as much as possible. If I come by any more questions I will definitely email you about it. :) Marco, I know of the article by Kaveh on a post-modern 'dictionary' on Khazars. (I actually commented on some of the comments there) But thanks anyway for taking the time and informing me about it.

Simply, there is no biological support that Iranians are any different from other Middle Eastern groups. There is also no evidence for any major migration of Aryans to Iran. So whatever we have merely some linguistic and cultural influences. But what is actually happening, people take that influence as proof for where Iranians came from. What I am suggesting is that let's drop this crap about where Iranians came from because it is irrelant to the realities on the ground (many ethnic groups in Iran who do not what to call themselves Persians such as Azeri and Kurd). Then let's appreciate the cultural diversity and claim all of it as what makes us Iranians. Iranian culture today is a mixture of old-Zorostians, Arabs, Turks, Babylonians(yes babylonians because of what is called Persian Newyear). In answer to Jahan, I am not claiming to forging the history. In fact, I am... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

There is a history professor, who if I am not mistaken is a Tehran University faculty member, by the name of Mr.Nasser Poorpiraar. He has a series of books titled "Twelve Centuries of Silence". The title I believe has been chosen to contrast the "Two Centuries of Silence" by Mr.Zarrinkoub. In the first volume, which is about the Achaemenids, the author criticizes the popular conception about the Aryans. He argues that whatever information we have about the Aryans, and the Acheminids being a great tribe rising to build one of the greatest empires throughout the history of mankind, is based on the falsified and/or inaccurate information taken from unreliable sources such as the inscriptions on tablets made by the Achaeminid kings themselves, or the narratives written by the delusional and phoney Greek historian Herodotus, who Mr.Poorpiraar claims was under the payroll of the Achaemenids themselves at the time. He... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Thank God that we have the Jews to blame everything on them :) Imagine how tasteless life would have been if we didn’t have them ;) Arash, sometimes people don't respond because they don't find the remarks worth of wasting their breath. I don't know the person whom you mentioned but I can imagine that there are times in life that you have to choose your fights.

I have heard about that theory too. There was an article published about it in, well, Keyhan, the conservative fundamentalist newspaper in Iran. The conflicting interests in review/revising this part of our history seem to have brought such exotic ideas into actual written discourse. Mehdi, Pahlavis had of course their own interest in these matters, but you may want to know about certain genetic studies reported for example here: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/index.html It happens to be at your current workplace, so why don't you just go and ask them about it :)

Yahya, (please read these lines while listening to the 2nd Movement of the Ninth Symphony by Ludwig van Beethoven): Your Ambivalence to the High-value of Yahya, (please read these lines while listening to the 2nd Movement of the Ninth Symphony by Ludwig van Beethoven): Your Ambivalence to the High-value of Your Ancestors' history, does not mean that we have to begin a campaign of building cultural death camps to destroy whatever that is non-Iranic and build a pure Iranic culture (however romantic the idea might be in the eyes of some people like Oos Yaghoob Yazid Nazi Abadi!). I suppose your human good will motivated your assumption of the common background of all Iranians, and I appreciate that, but in fact, Iranians of today do not share the same history. However, you are totally ignoring the vast amount of research both inside and outside of Iran that has been... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Yahya, I can understand how you want to be a universal humanitarian...that's all very fine. Good for you. What I can't understand is why you, and people like you, seem to believe that they can only be like that at the expense of the rich culture of an ancient people. (I hope you still admit that this is an ancient people) "there is no biological support that Iranians are any different from other Middle Eastern groups" Man, you seem horribly mixed up here. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!! What kind of nonsense is this?! Who the hell is expecting to see BIOLOGICAL differences?!! For the thousandth time, the indo-european, aryan, iranic,turkic,arab, middle eastern, NONE OF THEM IS RACIAL, OK? Give it a rest! "There is also no evidence for any major migration of Aryans to Iran." Oh...really? So where did the languages all come here? They fell... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Arash, My God, I can't believe what I read here? You think anything that stinking peace of f***ng sh*t garbage filth is even slightly to be taken seriously?!! He is a Nazi type anti-semite galour, something identical to Julius Streicher and his infamous Stuermer, or to Goebbles and the like, Who not surprisingly cuddles the islamic part of this anti-semtic , anti-iranian fascits islamic system to be able to express his sick fantasies. My best guess, he is a renegade 'Tudeyi' communist...one of the 'tavvabin'. What he mentione about the Torah/Cyrus/Darius/Achamenid similarities are nothing new. Neither is the fact that Zorosatrianism is not necessarily the continuation of a certain Zarathustra. Only Gathas is dated as that old. There is even not enough evidence that Zarathustra was an Iranian. Could very well have belonged to another tribe. What constitues the rest of zoroastriansim can, as far as I know, be... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

After reading this section and the responses to Yahya, I cracked up :) Sorry I read very quickly, but Yahya did you say that you're a researcher at Stanford and couldn't find any biological evidence?

Dear Friends, In short: Pour Pirar is not a professor in Tehran University (or any university for that matter). He does not have a degree in any area related to what he writes about. His works (I have read all but the last of them) are idiotic to put it mildly. What confuses me is that seemingly educated people take his works seriously. It also makes me wonder that people who decidedly know very little in certain areas, make sweeping claims in those areas where they know the least. Also, Mr Yahya, Pahlavis did not make claims regarding origins of Iranian peoples, research done by historians did. I think you have your facts wrong.

Arash, I'm sorry for using not so appropriate language here. Although I insist that that Pourpirar deserves much worse words to describe him, this website is not the place to use them. It's justy that the degree of degeneracy reaches such lows some time that controling onself in the face of it would need a Herculean effort. I apologize to everyone for foul language here. Just to make my main point again, nothing of what might have struck you as though inspiring is new in his 'works' but have laready been and still are researched everywhere and again since besides us the Jews, Armenians and the small minority of Assyrians are the only living cultures of ancient miidle east who have kept the worldview and traditions alive, it is no wonder if we find so mant stratling paralleles between Iranians and Jewish worldview, history, Mysticism and mythology. If other... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

Dear AIS: I honestly am surprised by your ability to cross-reference and analyze different narratives of history. You are certainly a very well-read person, and I really am hopeful that there are more of you amongst the young generation of Iranic students (if you are of course as young as I think you are). I am so proud of you! I believe that you and your kind are true Iranics and one of the missing links of the broader of Nordic-Iranic-Allied community. May the spirits of our ancestors be with you! Just to let everyone know, the next post will be dedicated to The Secrets of the Iranic Cultural Resilience In Defeat. This will be in short: the Story of "Iranic Rebellion and Persian Resistance under Occupation and Strife".

AIS, Thanks for the information. Well as I said, unfortunately, history has never been at the top of my reading list, so what I said about Mr.Pourpirar was merely a statement of the observations made by a less-informed person on history (that being me) in a book that raises doubts about some customarily accepted historical facts; so I think there was no reason for anyone to get emotional. I was just asking for directions and other people's opinions. Now, as I said, my impression of Mr.Pourpirar's book (or at least the volume on the Achaemenids) is rather ambivalent, because I see it as a book that consists of two totally different parts. The first deals with presenting (seemingly) evidence and arguments in support of the doubtfulness of the popular conceptions about Achaemenids. This part, irrespective of who has written it and what their intentions have been, I still find... [more at the permalink of the entry above]

It seems this page deals with historical issues concerning Iran and Turk issues in part. I refer all the attendants to a series of hisotrical volumes named: "12 decades of silence" in Farsi written by Naser Purpirar. These works regards history of Iran and the tribes/cultures from a different point of view. I think some of Purpirar's views make us keen to review the existant historical approaches critically again. I hope this can help somebody to find new opinions on the "fairy story" written as the "fair history" of Iran!