Salaam be Mehdi, va baghiyye, Mehdi, I'm really sorry if I have to say it this way, but I am in total disagreement with this line of thinking. The reason why is: So What! What's the point of her lining up all these sentimental sentences? Is she really telling us that she doesn't know anything about how power works, and what politics is!! That, I think she knows better than anyone else --in her spidery playing it safe and conservative in all of her speeches! Isn't it? So! What is this? The only thing I can think of, is that it's not her, talking! I'm sorry, but based upon the above, I can't see why I shouldn't think so! I mean, realisticly speaking!
Mehdi, One of the main reason that a person is granted Nobel peace is giving him or her kind of shelter that authorities can no longer be able to sue him or her or imprison him or her, for he/she is internationally well known now. Ms Ebadi has not been able to fulfil her obligation in this regard, and seize the opportunity to criticise the policies of Iranian regime. Instead, she has chosen to criticise policies of France or US. We all know that these kinds of ambiguous and theoretical declarations are not very useful. The above statement is just a mere brief and recitation of Universal Declaration of Human rights. You and I can also say exactly same stuffs. Although she is not a very well known lawyer, but at least she must start to criticise Iranian and Islamic laws and regulations from the point of view of... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Well said, Sara! SO WHAT? That's the basic point, and that's exactly what I said in a comment I posted to the forum entitled "Shirin's Day". http://freethoughts.org/archives/000186.php Now we see Ebadi sinking to the level of those peaceful, run-of-the mill activists: making insipid, boring speeches with the help of thread-bare clichés: "People are different, and so are their cultures." "People speak in a variety of languages." Really? Hard work for you there! When exactly did you pull off these mighty feats of human intelligence?
What did she actually win the Nobel Peace Prize for? Wasn't it actions taken on behalf of women and the poor? Sorry for my ignorance.
Sorry u guys, I didn't get the purpose of this post!? Could you remind me of your thesis here?
"No religion allows the killing of the innocent" Heh...really?! but who are these famous "innocent"s in the first place? Those nicey little religions consider themsleves the judges of that, don't they? The Irony of it all! Was there ever ANYTHING more responsible for the killing of innocents in man's history one way or the other than "religions"- especially the one she sees as her primal destiny in life to advocate? (Why do I suspect this Zahra Kazemi case will go down the drains as well? hmmm...let's see....)
I second AIS' comments. I am sorry. However, I always had mixed views about Ebadi's approach. She, in my view, did not deserve the prize as much as someone like Mehr Angiz Kar did. I would also rephrase one of her clauses as follows: People are often misguided by different religions! Jangeh Haftad-do Mellat Hameh Raa Ozr Beneh Chon Nadeedand Hagheeghaght Rahe Afsaaneh zadand, But what is "haghighat"? What is truth? Is truth the same truth that was used to slaughter the Shoobiyeh?! To skin Sohrevardi alive? For 200 years, Arabs did nothing but to pursue a culture of exploitation in Iran until they were expelled for good. Even today, they are using their suicidal culture to revive their "forever”-dead empire. "So cultural relativity should never be used as a pretext to violate human rights", So Islam is not fundamentally in contradiction with Secular Liberal Human Rights? If so,... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
AIS pinpointed a very important thing. The word "innocent" makes the following sentence really stinky. "No religion allows the killing of the innocent". It's so badly important, i felt obligated to repeat it.
One slice of Ebadi's actions is bigger and more valuable to me than all your thoughts combined. I wonder what you philosphers do when it comes to action? This is a typical Iranian problem: we only know how to talk and we don't even do it well. If we did, we would have ,at least, contributed to the philosophers' club!
Mirror: How do you know that some of us have never done anything substantive for Iran,, and in Iran, before? How do you know if our close relatives are not similarly in trouble? Join the philosophers club, as I invite you, you may one day enjoy the chance of being locked in a cell, or kicked out of your mother's land after being called anything but "an Iranian" by people who even don't want to be "Iranian" themselves. And who knows, maybe you have had such a chance, or has provided for such chances, or is living such a chance as an inmate or a jailer... This the virtual world after all!
In response to Mirror, In fact I would not blame but rather appreciate her activities undertaken in Iran. But I can't have any admiratioon for her wishy-washy-sounding talks.
Mirror, I am really curious to know your stance vis a vis J. W Bush , his administration and the US in general. Thanks. (this might sound a bit off topic at first but I think not: I just want to know how far your preference of 'actions' against 'words' go, that's all.)
And I'd be most grateful if you add your opinion about Reza Shah and his 'actions' as well while you're at it, to give also a domestic point of reference. (Our current action-heroine herself doesn't seem to share your fascination with these people's actions, whatever your satnce may be, BTW)
Folks, Here is my two bits for the debate: I read the Human Development Report, Mrs Ebadi's composition (this is not really a letter), and the index. What I found odd was the names of authors and principal consultants of the report. I actually happen to know several people on the list either by reading their works, or by working with/for them! It is hard to believe, but almost all of them are to the extreme left of the political spectrum. I happan to know the only Iranian on the list and she is not shy to say that she is a unreformed Marxist. What I found odd again is the fact that ethnic identity and ethnocentric nationalism is fast becoming the holy grail of the new left. This repaort, in spite of a mountain of evidence against ethnic federalism and in favor of liberal federalism, prescribes the former... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
As for Mrs Ebadi, she is becoming increasingly boring and limp! I mean, at least respect your position as a Nobel prize laureate! No one is going to touch her, and yet she sees the needle and forgets about the spear! This kind of wishy-washy cultural relativist BS might be good for over-the-coffee discussions of a bunch of freshmen, but they are definitely not acceptable from a noted activist.
Most of you love moaning don't you? What do you mean by "So What"? I support Mirror's comment. She is the woman of action. Instead of asking herself "So what?", she has stood up, done something and received the Nobel Prize for it. Ebadi is simply repeating her core values. She might have come to this conclusion that emphasising on these sentences and values could enlighten some people or work for her in a different way. How on earth can you expect her to stand up against the Iranian regime and criticise them in every possible chance? Did "you" grant her the Nobel Prize? Is that why you expect her to do what "you" think is right? Did she get the prize for criticising the regime? I agree that someone with a Nobel prize in hand and a worldwide recognition has a lot more power to enforce change, but... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
It seems that any topic related to Shirin Ebadi hopelessly devides people into antagonist groups. I can't help but feel pity over this. I understand one may have objections to some of the things Ebadi says, or her approach or her choice of topics for a public speech, etc; I do myself! But the fact remains that she is a legal activist, and a good one indeed. In any realistic critique of her work one should take this into account and give her due credit. Calling her names with no alternative clear plan of action does not lead anywhere.
AIS, I am sorry to say this, but you seem to be completely oblivious about analytical thinking. We are discussing Ms. Ebadi's activism, a highly concret issue. I don't know what is the merit of making terse and incomprehensible allusions to G.W.Bush and Reza Shah(!) I for one would have prefered to see sentences with more legal than sentimental content. But in a country like Iran, where there is no commen ground for the limits of freedom of speech, you need a lot more weariness and subtlety in expressing your views. You seems to harbor highly antagonistic views toward religon. Regarding your ramanticized comment on the role of religions in historical mass murders, I just wanted to mantion that sentimetal Nazis manage to establish the record 50 years ago. Open your eyes and read more history!
And what has this subtlety has earned Iran? (Excuse me AIS, it is you who is being addressed, but I just could not..). Antagonism is the result of the disappointment of people, learned or otherwise, in seeing that the Islamic Republic does not even want to allow a plurality of views that subscribe to its highly contradictory and full of "unless it contradicts the principles of Islam" reservations. This is a substantive discussion. And of course, you are right, any human ideology that turns into a totalist religion, such as Nazism or Communism, acts like one. Your comment gives me an opportunity to remind you that Dr. Habdolhossein Zarinkoob tells us in Two Centuries of Silence that Persians were massacred in Marv just because they chose to do the Salaat (namaz) in Persian instead of Arabic! Organized religion powered by the force the State was indeed the Torch Light... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Eswin, I need to clarify something at the begining: I am not in favor of the current regime in Iran, neither do I believe that it is an Islamic one. An islamic state has to maintain the freedom of speech as long as it stays within the general frameworks of Islam. Many incidents (Aqajari's trial is a good example) show that this regime cannot tolerate even this minumum level. I agree with you that states can be transformed to Leviathans when fed with religon. I don't remember who said that any tool can turn into a weapon if you hold it right. My disagreements with you (and probably AIS) start where you use this historical date to criticize religon per se. Except for a bunch of historical facts (though not very accurate, e.g. Sohrevardi was assasinated but not "skined alive") you have not provided any solid arguments to show... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Dear O.V.: I really appreciate that under the present circumstances any achievement may seem to go a long way. I believe in human rights, but I am not idealistic about them. Aspiring for human rights and their realization, I indeed support and promote. I have already paid my dues for activism a nearly a decade ago until I was forced out of my mother's land for purely political reasons. So I have had my encounter with the lack of human rights in Iran just before the Reform's sun was about to rise. Hence, I have paid the price, a right that many take for granted. Man az beegaanehgaan hargez nanaalam keh baa man har cheh kard aan ashnaa kard. I do view many issues through the lens of politics and I insist politics and power politics in a very accurate sense has become the defining denominator of many economic... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Sorry this sentence belonged to the PS section but I srewed it up when I was doing cut&paste: PS: After the Britannica link: If you would like any other most available source, you can look at Karvaan Tassavof by Zarrinkoob.
The respective hadith that I have cited is constantly used in Iranian courts by the way. Its original form is something like: Anta va maalika' li'abika' which is: You and your property belong to your father. There is consenus over its authenticiy amongst the Shiite and Sunni sources and it has been used to justify both infanticide by the father. It is upon Judge's discretion to impose "tazir" punishments. Moreover, if an adult child of a father is murdered by his or her father the same rule applies. Finally, if a mother kills one child, she has to be punished by death, if the owners of the blood, "valieh" "dam", wish so. Owners of the blood, as you may guess, are the husband or the husband's father, or in the absence of the two the uncle of the child or the uncle of the father of the child. What... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Thanks Eswin for sharing your thoughts on this. Occasional visitor, Here is a forum for people to share their thoughts. I at least can't see how any 'action' is possible through postingin this website. Indeed that is what the title of this website says. So when someone jumps in the middle of a tread and says how " One slice of Ebadi's actions is bigger and more valuable to me than all your thoughts combined." he/she has already started an irrelevant off topic 'discussion'. I merely exercized an instance of my hypocracy-check, since as far as actions go the two examples I brought forth outweigh the likes of this lady by light years. OK? I don't know hwo effective writing a couple of books on children rights is in the situation in iRan (my guess: zero.zero%) and that is really not the issue here. THE ISSUE is how she... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Eswin, I am sure you know very well that the improvement of women or children conditions in a society can neither be proved nor disproved by mentioning one or two instances of first-hand experiences. I have recently done some reading about the structure of families and gender relations in Canada. I assume you are a canadian citizen, so you probably know that even in Canada with such a long histry of feminist and human rights movement, domestic violence and child abuse is still an issue and that's why the feminist movement had not fizzled out yet. Also I just remind you that Ebadi is a simple lawyer. She does not have much legal power and consequently not much political power. I've read people saying that since she has won the Noble prize, now she has enourmous power. I am really curious to see some evidence for that claim. I... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
If you want to have a forum about Mosaddegh, it sounds stupid to me to dig into his speeches. You should first dig into his actions during the oil independence period because he is defined that way. I am sure you can find a lot of defects in his speech if you want to.But It doesn't make him any less-valuable. If you want to have a forum abut Nietzsche, it has to be about his thoughts of course. Well if we exhausted our posts with his thoughts we can start talking about his girfriends or boyfriends for that matter. If you want to have a forum about Shirin Ebadi this forum has to be about her actions and her legal cases in the first place. She is defined and got her prize for her actions nasalamati! Posts about her speeches should come after we exhuasted posts about her actions.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
O.V.: I stand corrected on that Sohrevardi might not have been skinned to death, but there are sources, like the ones that I mentioned that say he was executed. You can look at the works of Henry Corbin. As per Ebadi's actions and comparison with Kaar's, I believe Ebadi tried to find justifications within the Constitution of the Islamic Republic, while Kaar retained a liberal stance. These two are very different. Ebadi has actively given legitimacy to the regime in ways that Kaar has never done. As to the Nobel Committee, they do not necessarily decide about these issues on actions or activism in a definitive sense. Our difference over this issue is simply ideological. Without Islam, Iranians remain Iranians and have many value systems before and without Islam. In fact, as you said, Sohravardi and Iranian Sufis have ensured that the dead body of Islamic teachings is given... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Eswin, would you tell us what your solution is for our current missery in Iran? Is it another revoloution? or is it a reform plan? Do you see Ebadi's actions in the reform map? In my view, going to jail as a hot-blooded activist doesn't solve Iran's problems. Revolution neither.
Occasional Visitor, Religion is an important factor in Iran, that's why i concentrate on it so much. No people won't be leaving their religion all of a sudden, but that doesn't mean one should not say the truth about the inhumanity at the cor eof Islam for example, just because it won't have immidiate total effect. Your arguments are really more like jokes. It is also possible that the majority of the educated section of the society that is responsible for culture building for the future to clear its position visa vis Islam, as the same did happen with Chrsitiany in teh West. Not all the people left it all of a sudden. Indeed up to this day the majority of people one way or the other consider themselves Chrsitians, yet Christianity is out of the most influential intellectual sphere of the West as a direct power, although its... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Eswin, I can obviously see the difference between Kaar and Ebadi's approaches. Kaar is a self-identified secular and I have no problem with that. I am just interested to see "visible", "tangible", and concrete things she has done. I hope I have clearly expressed myself. So please tell us some if you know. I did not mean to compare the women's situation in Iran and Canada. My point was that even in a socially developed country (say Canada), you can easily find instances of violence against women and children. We need to look at the statistics. Your point about the prevalence of violence among the aborigibals is true and is probably because or their economical conditions. But even among the whites, 1 out of 10 of Canadian women have been severely assalulted by their husbands which is still quite high. I don't want to get to the history of... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Sit Thomas Lipton: (Or is it “Sir” Thomas Lipton??) “Most of you love moaning don't you? What do you mean by "So What"?” Absolutely irrelevant. What has it all got to do with “moaning”, pal? Most people on this forum expressed genuine delight when Ebadi got the prize, largely because they saw it as a snub to the hardline establishment. The “so what” part refers to 1) the dull, patronising phrases she let out in Boston and 2) the real, tangible consequences of her campaign, which have not been so impressive up until now. “She is the woman of action….she has stood up, done something and received the Nobel…” Perhaps you’ll be good enough to point out what exactly she’s DONE for children and prisoners of conscience here in Iran, and what real difference she’s made. Point is, as a Nobel laureate, she’s sort of untouchable at the moment.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Ali Mahani, You said it exactly as it is. Wish I could have been so elequent in my responses. Exactly as it is, very good job.
damn my typing. I meant 'eloquent' of course.
AIS Yeah thanks mate. Where's that Lipton chap, by the way?
to occasional visitor, comments on specific phrases that caught my attention: "Ms. Ebadi was awarded the Noble Peace Prize for what she had done when she was not in the spotlight." - Others have done the same thing, why was she selected in particular? Perhaps for a) being a leftist b) for not demanding a replacement of the Khomeneist dictatorship, but only calling for reform c) supporting the United Nations. Everyone knows that the Nobel Peace prize is nothing but a political statement on what is popular among european leftist "intellectuals". Europeans do not want to demand changes from Iran, they in fact make a living off the Khomeneist OIL monopolies (like they did with Saddam), they do not want to do anything considered "hard", and maybe that is why Ebadi got the Nobel prize. How's that for a theory? "I am sure that Ebadi and many other activists... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Ali Mahani, your welcome and I don't know anything about this Tea bag knight! JFTDMaster, indeed you are correct. The Nobel Commitee didn't even hide the fact that the main reason for the prize as because she was muslim and they wanted to give it to a muslim and they hoped to revive the by then dead 'reform' movement in Iran. Her 'actions' what ever they are, I'm still waiting for someone to give a detail of them and their effectiveness, were never really an issue and they didn't even bother by covering that up. ANd after Arafta and Carter being awarded such a prize, nothing else would surprise me in that category!
JFTDMAster, Just to reaffirm my previously stated position, I am all for a democratic political system in Iran and the sooner it emerges, the better. I am neither appeasing (Eswin's illusion) not fishing for compliments as I don't need any. I simply write what I beleive in. You wrote: "they do not want to do anything considered "hard"." I will be glad if you clarify what you mean by "hard". Is it the type of thing that Abdi, Eshkevari, Nouri, Aqaajari and lots of others have done? What came out of those futile "hard" works except that all of them became virtually apolitical and ineffective? Or maybe you dream of a revolution a la France and all that stuff? I am sorry, but the main trouble with this types of analyses is that they are based on the assumption that " A is a stupid person" or B does... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"If you are serious about politics, the point to start is to see what keep Ebadi-type figures to criticize the government straight out." - I'm not saying that empty and ethereal discussions will bring change to the Khomeneists, but I don't think Ebadi will either. Ultimately, to defend or promote what people believe in, they use force (or the threat of). And I don't think Khomeneists will surrender any of their power unless they were threatened with more of a loss of power (for example total destruction of the regime). They are not a democracy, they do not depend on the people of Iran, in fact their priviliged and powerful position depends on oil monopolies, repression of people and lack of "rights". In short, the only thing that can bring "change" is either an internal revolution (or a serious threat of an internal revolution), or external force (or threat... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Occasional Visitor: “it is absurd to compare Ebadi with Mandela or Sadat. Such cross-cultural compariosn are too superficial and eventually useless". I'm not comparing anyone with anyone, I cited the case of Sadat and Mandela just as examples of what real “Action” could mean. Peace activists across the globe are supposed to be striving in the same direction: making the world a better place to live in. Now that could take the form of signing a peace agreement, fighting apartheid, or defending political prisoners. Only some people have the guts to go all the way, while others prefer to keep their heads down and avoid personal trouble. After all, the message on this forum is that human rights are universal, fundamental values- nothing to do with different cultures. So in case you still don’t see the relevance, I suggest reading Ebadi’s historical and enlightening speech in Boston :)).
Sorry, I meant the letter at the top of this page.