"How a paradise-like society could be established by politicians who take care of only their own personal benefits?" Is that the aim of democracy? If it is so, how to define or understand the concept of paradise withen the democracy? -----------------------------------------------------
I love the picture, especially the wooden boxes!
A long time ago I bought a tiny book in order to quickly familiarize myself with Democracy. The book is titled, no, not "Democracy for Dummies", but "On Democracy", by Robert Alan Dahl, who as I am finding out thanks to amazon.com, has also written the following titles: "How Democratic is the American Constitution?" (sounds intriguing!), "A Preface to Democratic Theory", and "Democracy and Its Critics". I'm afraid I've not yet finished reading Dahl's little book (do I ever finish a book?), but I strongly recommend it for anybody who wants to write a serious essay on Democracy. I believe it's translated to Persian too, but I myself wouldn't rely on the Persian translation.
The following is not my only criticism, but as I was *trying* to read this post (From now on, not knowing whether "post" or "posting" is the right term for referring to FToI articles, I opt for the shorter "post"), I ran into the following sentences: "Suppose there is not something like religion, as it is assumed in secular states. Therefore, there is not any measure to show what is good and what is bad." I can't be sure what Hamed means by "something like religion", but if he means that religions provide the only possible yardsticks for right and wrong (or as Hamed puts is, "good" and "bad"), then I disagree. I believe that it is this very fallacy (that religion is the only sources of morality) that is responsible for many of our social problems. The secular man, unlike what we have been told, is not necessarily... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I failed to explain why in my opinion the idea that religion is the sole source of morality is responsible for a lot of our social ills. Here's an attempt at a clarification of my point: See, once X believes that morality, "the good and the bad" can *only* be provided by the dictums of a religious tradition, then as soon as X rejects a religion without embracing another one (something that, for whatever reason, has been happening in many traditional societies, for whatever reason), X naturally finds it alright to do anything that doesn't get him/her caught and punished. As you know, this is not how the Western man operates though. There are deeply instilled moral codes in the West, without which the society would simply collapse. Our eyes are not trained for discerning these rules and it takes us a while to feel their strong authoritative presence.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"What is the engine of democracy?" - Why don't you start with, what IS a modern democracy? "In this post I would like to have a look at the simplest process which leads to democracy with the minimal assumptions and in the worst case. There is no law, and every one is evil. " - How can you have a modern democracy with no rule of law? And what's "evil"? If people consciously wanted to hurt everyone around them, I don't think democracy or any society can exist. At the very least, a society requires identification into "us" and "them", and "us" is the society. The idea of democracy is that the leaders are at least partially accountable to the people, and the government at least partially represents what the people want. The most basic question (which I don't know how to answer myself) is, how does democracy come... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
it all probably starts with councils representing various interests meeting and deciding on things. Over time, more and more groups of people are demanding to have a vote, until most people have a vote through their representatives at the council.
Unfortunately my Master of JFTD, the democratic process that you mention here never happened in history unless there were a select few individuals who helped it and saw that it was good. These simple ideas are good and nice but we must be on the watch for the downfalls as well: both Hitler and Mussolini (as particularly celebrated examples of "evil" in modern times) came to power by manipulation of relatively young democracies. Democracy, I think, is best to be considered as a good tradition not as an ideal system of government; that's asking for too much. Iran and Turkey are the first countries in the Middle East to have experienced democratic processes. It is interesting to note that Turkey hasn't moved on far from there after about 100 years (well they had uncountably many military coup d'etats instead and are now facing serious threats from Muslim Fundamentalism) and... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
The idea of two srong competing party, group or whatever you want to name it, is something that philosopher Karl Poper has pointed out in his book, "The open Society and its enemies", (if I remember correctly.
Señor Græd, I meant by “something like religion” any thing which asks its followers to do some thing against their personal interest, without any reward or punishment. Whatever it is, you can not guaranty that the followers always obey. “democratically established government is just the tip of a huge iceberg”, I agree. Have it in mind that an iceberg is the result of very simple process, you just need some water and a cold climate :-) JFTDMaster, In addition to Grand Vizier's comment, Maybe the word “evil” was too strong. I meant some one who just take care of his own interests, in any cost. “If people consciously wanted to hurt everyone around them, I don't think democracy or any society can exist. At the very least.” After a while the people will find that their personal benefit is to do not hurt each others. Grand Vizier, You have... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Okay, I claim that our problem with democracy is the fact that we lack the ethical foundation necessary for sustaining a democracy (together, of course, with beliefs such as belief in the equality of human beings) and Grand Vizier, in an uncharacteristically long comment, maintains that our problem is the fact that we lack a tradition of democracy. I find Grand Vizier's position akin to my own. It seems to me that we both feel that there is something essential missing here, and we each come up with our own words for the missing element. This is not to say that I think ethical foundation and tradition are one and the same, but there is a close relation between them. What I have in mind by "morality" (a word whose old connotations may make you cringe in disgust!) has a more individual nature (every individual should believe in certain... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
On second thought, "morality" (which I take to mean a set of principles for conducting your affairs with other human beings) seems to have more overlap with "tradition". However, although a tradition-oriented ;-) approach to democracy in Iran points to the fact that Iran doesn't have a past that is, well, democratic (a defect with no remedy that I can think of), a morality-specific approach (should I wink again?) hopes to change the minds of individuals in such a way that they accept, even embrace democracy as *the* way to be. It seems to me that any system of morality is based on certain convictions. For example, if you believe that all humans are (created) equal, then you will not discriminate against someone based on their race, but if you believe that your tribe consists of God's chosen people, then of course you may act differently. In general, whatever... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Hamed wrote: "Have it in mind that an iceberg is the result of very simple process, you just need some water and a cold climate". Let's see if you can make a small iceberg in the Adriatic Sea. :-)
In a comment above, I said something about the "critical" study of history and I would like to underline the word "critical" here. You see, one problem with history is that no proud nation likes to hear bad things about its past. So the story of those historians who insist on telling the truth will just fall on deaf ears. (In more primitive societies, they may even risk their lives by narrating the events the way they see them.) People simply like to hear good things about themselves and their fathers. There is, however, a more intrinsic problem with history, which I cannot elaborate on very well. Briefly, any account of history is necessarily contingent. For a nice elaboration on this idea, I suggest reading the beginning pages of this book: "The Individual, Society, and Education" by Clarence J. Karier.
Great article, but, you are all way off base. What is "missing" in a Muslim society is the Judeo-Christian ethic. Regardless of whether our democratic governments are secular, they are nevertheless based in the Judeo-Christian ethic and tenets of morality: The Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. Those tenets also include a separation of "Church" and State ("give unto Ceasar. . .") as well as a high level of tolerance. It is not written in the Torah or the Bible that one should "kill the unbeliever" to the extent that this is so in the Qu'ran with scores of passages on jihad and war against the "infidel." Unless Islam has a Reformation, there can be no change for Muslim governments because intolerance of the "other" or the apostate ("bad" Muslim, whatever that is) is codified in sharia law. With Islam being a so-called "complete" system of living, based on... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
In Iran we still have some Zoroastrians. Is there any Mithraists in Italy or Muslims in Spain?
I beg to differ with Wessie in so far as he tries to portray the fundamentals of the political ethics in the Western Democratic states on highly aggregate terms. Of note are the German, French, Swedish and the Dutch political ethic that are radically secular. They draw the ethical concepts from 1789 Revolution inspired principles and values, rather than the so-called "Judeo-Christian" laden values of some common law systems. I think the strongest feature of the present article is its succinct assessment of the importance of political pluralism and political equality as primary to ensure the effectiveness and meaningfulness of the democratic project. Unfortunately, Roman style republicanism has often jeopardized democratic projects' salient approach to ensure pluralism and equality. In so doing, Britain and the US have been much slower in the post-War to achieve such pluralism. In fact, one can argue, especially in the case of the US,... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
First, Mr. Oakman, try to turn your sexist prejudices off automatic pilot and understand that I am a woman. ;-) Second, I continue to maintain that Western secular law and jurisprudence is based in the Judeo-Christian ethic, which in turn are based in Roman law. It is precisely the reason WHY the state can be secular. Regardless of the "radical" secularism of many European states, their basis of law and jurisprudence are in the tenets of the Judeo-Christian ethic. Note the current argument in the EU regarding making that part of the constitution. “By way of analogy, it seems to me that democratic practice in a coutnry like the US has already lost its meaning for many of its citizens, NOT TO MEANION THAT MANY CITIZENS OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN HAVE BEEN FEELING LIKE THIS MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DURING THE PAST 25 YEARS.” With all due... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
This is quite an interesting exchange. Not that I have anything to add to it, or even suggest that I fully understand what Ms. Wessie and Mr. Essie are talking about. Part of Ms. Wessie's comment, however, reminded me of a strange piece of news that I ran into recently: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8AD9D094-4356-4428-BE23-2A6C1FAA19E6.htm
You seem to be a REAL admirer of your Judeo-Christian stuff! However you seem to have overlooked the fact that your beloved Christian backers here in the states want you to be in Israel in order to expedite the second coming of Jesus! "According to the most influential of the Christian Zionists, Hal Lindsey, the valley from Galilee to Eilat will flow with blood and "144,000 Jews would bow down before Jesus and be saved, but the rest of Jewry would perish in the mother of all holocausts". Just check out this piece! http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,973445,00.html And there is more than 50 million of this kind here in the US! Also in a recent opinion poll, the “Christian Europe” singled out Israel as the biggest threat to the world peace! You don’t seem to have a minimum knowledge of history otherwise you wouldn’t make these gross and ridiculous comments!
Someone wrote: "You don’t seem to have a minimum knowledge of history otherwise you wouldn’t make these gross and ridiculous comments!" I think this language is inappropriate and unacceptable. Even this one is not so polite (from another column, witten by a loose can): "How many Iranians have you met that told you that? ... How much do you know about Islam anyway? Have you looked at any modern scholarly text on Islam?" Can we all calm down and discuss our issues in a more friendly setting?
"No free-enterprise economic system can function properly (fairly and efficiently) without a strong Judeo-Christian ethical base. [Remember the Judeo-Christian ethic—“Love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul and mind; and love your neighbor as you love yourself.] Free-enterprise, without this ethical basis, will inevitably deteriorate into materialism. Materialism is the belief that comfort, security, pleasure, and/or prosperity are the only things that really matter in life; or it is the tendency to focus on material things (e.g., a nice car or a large, comfortable house) rather than on spiritual things (e.g., God, His Will, justice, and righteousness). Without a strong Judeo-Christian ethic, powerful “capitalists” (because they are human—because their fundamental nature is self-serving) will exploit their workers and their customers for all they can get. With a strong Judeo-Christian ethical foundation, the built-in checks against human nature—competition and the bottom line—together with ethical competitors, workers and consumers... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
To throw my two cents on this topic, I have problems with this 'judeo-christian' categorization. The way I see it, Christianity is fundamentaly different from Judaism, although it is superficially connected to it via the same 'old' testament and pre-Christ history. Judaism was the result of a great innovation, Christianity is Pagan to its very roots and only immitates Judaism in its outward declerations. I am aware that protestanism has been trying to uplift a lot of the historical Jewish elements but its still a far cry (and will remain so) , for one thing thae simply can't do away with their Christ's life,death,resurrection, God in flesh...dogma.
Oh yes, and as to the point of secularism, I agree that Christianity has left the matter not completely closed so that the remaining loop hole could be used after the renaissence to do away with theh Church in politics, the matter is not so simple. By just looking at John for example (which is incidentaly not a Gospel at all , but a theological tractatus in which Jesus is only a character in the same sense that Socrates is one in Platos works, and has therefore almost no historical worth-but is included by all Christians in their Canon so it does form part of the basis for Christianity) you see in abundance claims of Jesus being the Only path, the only way of redemption, the only channel to God and truth...and the Geist of that is against the very core of democracy and secularism and the fact that... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Ms. Wessie, your words sound to me as if you might not be very familiar with Islam, history of Iran and the one of the west. Let me remind you that judeo-Christian made a very dark point in the mankind history when they had absolute power. You might have seen one of the not very famous words of one Pops - If you go to Rome you could find it. It reads "Peace of Jesus for the Jesus kingdom". I am absolutely disagree with you and I think that the source of present pluralism and tolerance IS NOT judeo-christian culture. These concept have been borrowed from some other fountains located outside of judeo-christian yard. Islamic countries made and even established the base of modern science and culture, when Islam had the power in these countries. Islam never has stood against science as the church did. Anyway it seems after... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Ah, this is interesting. While Iranians often profess to be irreligious just look at the posts above. ;-) "You seem to be a REAL admirer of your Judeo-Christian stuff!" You apparently don't understand what is meant by the term Judeo-Christian, Señor Græd, or you would not make the statements you made. It has little to do with either Judaism or Christianity as religions but rather their tenets as the basis for our civilization and the laws under which we live in the West. And, yes, despite not being a 'Christian,' I am an admirer of the progress the Judeo-Christian world has made, while the Muslim world has produced virtually nothing for the last 500 years—since being driven out of Spain, a Christian country where Muslims did not belong in the first place. I will pit my knowledge of history as well as my knowledge of Christianity and Islam against... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Also at the end let me remind you that Islam has not destroyed any religion." Destruction of ALL religions besides Islam is Islam’s mission as instructed in the Qu'ran: • "Slay those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay jaziah out of hand and are utterly subdued Surah Al-Tawbah (Repentence), Ayah 29, . . " Why are other religions persecuted by Muslims world wide? Why can no Christian or other religious places of worship be built in Saudi Arabia, the "birth place" of Islam, etc.? Why do Muslims murder innocents every day of the week all around the world in the name of Islam? Why is the cry of Muslim fundamentalists "convert or die"? "Bombs found in Christian Schools. Pupils Warned to become Muslims or... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I am here to witness that His Majesty Señor Græd did not write the comment you are referring to, Wessie. Look carefully: somebody else wrote that comment! You have written a long comment. Yet another boring weekend is upon us, I know. I shall try to correct your wrongs as far as I can, but I may not be able to finish it. You feel free to write back though. First of all, I do agree that Judeo-Christian ethic had played an important role in *shaping* America the way it stands today. But I certainly disagree that the modern notions of democracy, pluralism, tolerance, human rights, etc. *emerge* from the Judeo-Christian tradition. How come they didn't emerge for more than a millenia? Quite the contrary, I believe these modern notions emerged *against* a tyranny for which Christianity was largely responsible. Muslims' having produced "nothing for the last 500 years"... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie: The name of the commentors appear above their comments in the comment section, not below. So, it was "huh!" that proclaimed: "You seem to be a REAL admirer of your Judeo-Christian stuff!" not "Señor Græd" and it was "An Iranian Student (AIS)" who suggested: ". . .As a final suggestion, perhaps Graeco-Judaic is a better candidate , though it stll leaves a lot missing. . . " not "daanaa." Just to clear some things up!
I think Wessie's last comments above has some valid points, although the best thing about it is that it provides for us a well-versed account of how someone may be tempted to view us (Iranians or Muslims) from the outside. The thesis that Islam is not compatible with democracy is nothing new, however. This has been discussed at length by many "insiders", if you will, and in fact, we argued about it in this very forum while back...
Sorry about the confusion with ”who posted what” all. I realized after I posted that I had miscredited the posts. How come no one signs their names? His “Majesty Señor Græd”? Right! OK then I’m the Queen of Sheeba. LOL ”You have written a long comment. Yet another boring weekend is upon us, I know.” First, it’s not the weekend yet. Second, Americans tend to work even on the weekends as will I. And third, only boring people are bored. ;-) “First of all, I do agree that Judeo-Christian ethic had played an important role in *shaping* America the way it stands today. But I certainly disagree that the modern notions of democracy, pluralism, tolerance, human rights, etc. *emerge* from the Judeo-Christian tradition. How come they didn't emerge for more than a millenia? I already told you your Majesty, because of the literacy of the populace after the invention... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie, I wonder why you answer the points I made by refering to Islam? "Islam is a 7th century death cult. " exactly. I agree with you on that and your view about Islam 100%. (You seem to be new to this site,so welcome first, because I have made many points myself on this topic that you can check for yourself (you have to usually look at the last half of comment sections for my part), so when I talk about Christianity rest assured that Islam is completely out of the picture already.) "It (the term Judeo-Christian) has little to do with either Judaism or Christianity as religions but rather their tenets as the basis for our civilization and the laws under which we live in the West." That is exactly why I am saying that it better be called 'Graeco-Judaic' instead. I agree again with your overall point... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Iranian Student, thanks for the reply. And thanks for the welcome! I see that you are still "mixing" the tenets of Judaism and Christianity as well as the crimes of so-called Christians, which have nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity. While Islam TEACHES hatred and jihad, Christianity does not. Never mind that *some* people, calling themselves Christians did very bad things. That is almost irrelevant, as horrible as it was, because Christianity does not postulate such things in its written scriptures. Islam, OTOH, has reams of misanthropic surahs and hadith. However, it is very late here and my day is over. So, if you will excuse me, I shall have to tackle your post tomorrow. :-) Wessie PS—I don't think daanaa was kidding. ;-)
My God, Wessie, can't we talk of Christianity without comparing it with Islam? please remember that 'The revelations' and 'The Gsopel of St. John' ...ARE in the scripture. Once again, there is a REASON, to be found in the basic dogmas of any religion, why those 'bad' people behaved the way they did, FOR A THOUSAND years and perhaps more. I am NOT talking about orders of killing of infidels in the Christrian texts, ok? I am talking about the inherent fascism in the teaching that says 'I am the ONLY way, if you want to see the Father you have to go through me' that anone else will be condemned to eternal damnation in the after life. This is afterlifce terrorism if you like . ;) I have a question for you: What do you hope to achieve by confronting people like this? If you agree that the... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I think I really ahve to tell a bit more here. I have defended Judaism here a lot, and I do not deny that there are many elements in it that I STRONGLY admire. That however does not make me blind to the fact that you can also find some mumbojumbo in its myriads of religous documents that are indeed absolute bullshit, or that you sometimes find passages in the early that are horribly savage. I understand this as the more primitive stages of an ever evolving CULTURE based on a very noble idea that eventually gets more and more humane in its details and I compare even the savage parts with the total savagery of the time-just look at the Hammurabi law code for example and remember that despite its disturbing violent nature it is a milestone in human history. I can do that because Judaism has no... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
In the middle of Wessie's comment (dated yesterday 07:14 PM) I smelled the unpleasant smell of bigotry. I was first willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but she's totally unreasonable, man! I didn't even finish reading the comment. I stopped where she stubbornly insists on her unsubstantiated (and ignorant) version of the story of Spain. Go to a library and read some books, for God's sake, ma'am. Anyway, it's a busy weekend and I don't have time to respond all your allegations one by one. You certainly don't know much about the history of Europe. Or maybe you prefer not to know. If you don't have access to books, you should be able to use google, too. Just go to http://google.com and search words such as Islam, Spain, you know. Of course you will find some stuff that would please you, but for Heaven's sake read... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"I smelled the unpleasant smell of bigotry." Ah the race card. If one tells the truth about Islam and quotes the Qu’ran and the hadith as well as Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic historians, then one is labeled a “bigot” by Muslims. LOL The race card is so ineffective against the truth. The facts are that it is Muslims who are bigoted, intolerant and racist! They are taught to be so in their religious book the Qu’ran as well as the basis of sharia the hadith. As the Student above mentioned, the fascist idea that Muslims are “the best of peoples.” As a victim of Islamic terror I am only willing to give the “benefit of the doubt” to Muslims who categorically reject the violent, misanthropic, misogynistic passages in the Qu’ran. Let me see you put that into writing Señor Græd! ;-) “I stopped where she stubbornly insists on her... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Hey, Wessie, I never said I was "knowledgeable" about the story of Spain under Mussulmans, or the history of Islam for that matter. Unlike what you claim to be, I am not a student of religions. As idiotic as it sounds, I have adopted Google as my Great Educator. I really have no time for deeply delving into a serious study of religions. To my own embarrassment, I have not even read Koran once from cover to cover. Are you happy now? But I am not filled with fanatical anger and hatred directed towards a particular religion and its followers either. You've surely been hurt by some Muslims (the least of all, the 19 boys on a mission on September 2001) and you seem to know no better way of relieving yourself than lumping all the Muslims together and find faults (of which I'm sure there are many) with... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I should haste to add that I am by no means proud of the situation the Islamic world finds itself today. I just wanted you, Wessie, to get your sources of information right. Islam once helped make a great civilization. Perhaps Christianity helped made another great civilization later, as you seem to claim (though I have my doubts about how meaningful this comparison is, because, as I said before, it was the *decline* of the Church that paved the way for Reformation in Europe, or maybe the Reformation pushed Church back. Either way, I find it a hard-to-buy argument that: as soon as Muslims were driven out of Spain and Europeans got a chance to read the Bible "themselves", the art and science and democracy and whatevernot flourished among them. Frankly, it's even laughable.) Again, please clear your mind/heart and get your historical sources right, Wessie. Love thy neighbor,... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Have you people heard of this saying “The dogs bark and the Caravan passes by”? I was just checking some of the references that this “woman” was referring to and found out that some of them come from “Memri” website. It is basically a media institute that translates the Middle Eastern newspapers. The Guardian had an article titled “Selective Memri” which was explaining the nature of the institution and its functions. 1) Memri's purpose, according to its website, *is to bridge the language gap between the west - where few speak Arabic - and the Middle East*, by "providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media". 2) Its work is subsidized by US taxpayers because as an "independent, non-partisan, non-profit" organization, it has tax-deductible status under American law. 3) The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be acquired anew by every generation, and any serious interruption in its financing or its transmission may bring it to an end." Will Durant “Hey, Wessie, I never said I was "knowledgeable" about the story of Spain under Mussulmans, or the history of Islam for that matter. Unlike what you claim to be, I am not a student of religions. As idiotic as it sounds, I have adopted Google as my Great Educator. I really have no time for deeply delving into a serious study of religions. To my own embarrassment, I have not even read Koran once from cover to cover. Are you happy now?” You really are a pip, Señor! You denigrate my posts without being “knowledgeable.” You have not even read the Qu’ran cover to cover!? Get with it! The Qu’ran is a very, very short poem... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Continued: "Cordoba in its prime has no peer in Europe for the amenities of civilized life. Its houses were bountifully supplied with hot and cold running water, its streets were lit at night, its royal library. . ." If you recall (which I doubt) Spain was at one time conquered by imperial Rome. Indeed, Roman culture is very much a part of Spain to this day. The Romans had baths long before the conquering Arabs. Again something the Muslims acquired from another peoples—Public Baths. And I am sure that you will also recall the burning of the Egyptian library at Alexandria by Amr bin Aas at the behest of the Second Caliph, Umar. What the HECK is your point? All I am saying is that Islam is not, Not, NOT compatible with democracy. Are you saying that it is? “thanks for the list of the books. Rest assured that... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I was just checking some of the references that this “woman” was referring to and found out that some of them come from “Memri” website. Maryam the references come from the books listed. Why don’t you look them up? Just because Memri uses the books of Islamic scholars does not make them invalid. The great Islamic historian al-Taberi is who he is, whether Memri or I or you use the references. You may purchase the great Islamic historian here and find the references for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887067077/104-7753634-1579125?v=glance Al-Tabari, “The History of al-Tabari (Ta’rikh al rusul wa’l-muluk)”, (Albany, NY.: State University of New York Press, 1992). So, what I hear you claiming is that all the scholarly references listed are “no good” because Memri too uses them? It is rather like the Jews claiming that Wagner’s music is “not good” because he was an anti-Semite. Sorry, no cigar on this one.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie, "The deliberate destruction of our collective human heritage has been committed by many religions—but, chief among them Christianity and Islam. " Cool. That's what I have been trying to say too. Why did it take you to say so much and we wouldn't have had much to disagree upon. :)
I meant 'why did it take you so long to say as much...' sorry.
If you had been paying attention (like in class) AIS ;-) then you would have seen I have no love for Christianity either. But—and here’s the but— It is a better, more humane, less misanthropic, less misogynistic system than Islam. And—one can develop pluralistic democracy under Christianity, even under fundamentalist Christianity. The converse is not true. I don’t believe that democracy will flourish under Islam. Oh, it may limp along like in Turkey but, flourish, as in the US or Europe— No way— because, there is no tradition of secular humanism, and all its attendant philosophies, in Islam. Rather depressing, huh? ;-) Wessie
Wessie, you wrote, among many other things, of course: "I find it difficult to “love” a neighbor who wants to kill me, my family, my friends, my dog and my civilization in the name of his barbaric, 7th century death-cult, ..." If you REALLY think Muslims have nothing better, or more interesting, to do with their time than killing you, your family, your friends, and your companion, then it's REALLY time for you to head out of office, stop being "productive", take a break from work and study, go to a vacation, and leave your humongous library alone for a few days and let your mind relax and breathe. You can go to Bahamas or to Hawaii, but you better not take a book by Will Durant or about Salman Rushdie with you. ;-) By the way, I would appreciate it if you could tell us where in the... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie don't worry too much about what is going to happen to Muslims and Islam... It is all a part of "natural selection". Who knows maybe in 500 years the Western Civilization might face a similar survival challenge that Islam is facing now [and is fighting for it]. Islam is the only strong religion left, and the war is upon it for the last time... If the enlightenment didn't finish off Christianity, the holocaust did it, so to make more analogies, maybe there might be another holocaust in waiting?
Wessie: "I find it difficult to ?love? a neighbor who wants to kill me, my family,my friends ... and my civilization ..." Take a look at Quran it is exactly the same sentence and argument at 2:190. I guess you think this argument does not have anything to do with violence, why do you count this ayah as a valance symbol? Try not to become an Islamic hardliner during the war with Islamic hardliners. ;)
;-) (Sorry, something's got in one of my eyes. Damn. Have no idea why I'm smiling though. Hmmm. ;-) ;-) )
A general comment, I meant by this post to discuss about democracy in a rational way without entering religion. I believe it is possible to improve democracy in Iran without paying much attention to the consistency of Islam and democracy or Islam and human rights. We are yet far from it. By the way, I understood that people love to argue about religion.
Your Majesty! How nice to see you back and in good health—your posting sarcasm fully in tact. Did you get a lot of reading done over the weekend or did you just leave it all to Google—your "educator" as you have said. ;-) My weekend was great! I finished final tweaks on two scientific manuscripts and sent them to be submitted for publication; answered about a dozen e-mails and made some half-dozen phone calls. Enjoyed the wonderful winter weather with my husband and dog; had a BBQ; cooked for next week; did laundry; lifted weights and rode my bike; watched television for the first time in months (a depressing documentary about the long suffering women of Iran and two wonderful films about exuberant, free, musical Latin and black cultures). I finished reading 5 books on architecture and home construction, because I am designing a new house; picked out some... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
“I meant by this post to discuss about democracy in a rational way without entering religion. I believe it is possible to improve democracy in Iran without paying much attention to the consistency of Islam and democracy or Islam and human rights. We are yet far from it. By the way, I understood that people love to argue about religion. Unfortunately, Hamed, you are wrong. A bona fide democracy cannot be sustained in an Islamic state! Turkey is a good example. They are hanging on to their freedoms by the skin of their teeth and only because of a strong military committed to secular rule. Unless there is a Reformation in Islam wherein the ummah rejects all the misanthropic and misogynistic tenets that make Islam incompatible with democracy—it won’t happen. An "Islamic democracy" is an oxymoron! Wessie
Wessie, Maybe we think differently about democracy, could you describe yours?
How you spend your weekends, hon, sets a model for all of us, the happily indolent ones, *not* to follow. Leisure is a concept that workaholic Americans simply don't get. Relax, already! It's weekend for crying out loud. "I finished reading 5 books..." Well, no wonder none of the stuff you read sticks. Over-reading and under-thinking corrupts the mind, Wessie. The book becomes the worm that eats the bookworm's brain out, as my made-up proverb goes. Trust me on that! And be assured that I'll be back once I'm free from sitting around and doing nothing, with my sarcasm flying in your face stronger beyond your wildest dreams. ;-)
"How you spend your weekends, hon, sets a model for all of us, the happily indolent ones, *not* to follow. Leisure is a concept that workaholic Americans simply don't get. Relax, already! It's weekend for crying out loud. "I finished reading 5 books..." . . ." Señor Græd, I did a lot of fun stuff on the weekend and am not a workaholic, not even a type "A." I just have "unusual" hours—nocturnal and all that and make the most use of my time. I consider hiking, bike riding, 3 hours of TV watching, cooking, sitting with my family for at least 6 hours at table and reading—a very relaxing weekend. What do you consider relaxation—sleeping? LOL As to my retention ability. It is quite excellent, thank you. I also read extremely fast. I have what is known as a photographic memory. That means I can point to exactly... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Maybe we think differently about democracy, could you describe yours?" Quickly, Hamed (because I'm on the run today) both rights and responsibilities for everyone is my idea of democracy. I think the best place to start is with the American Bill of Rights: The Bill of Rights: A Transcription Note: The following text is a transcription of the first ten amendments to the Constitution in their original form. These amendments were ratified December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amendment II A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"both rights and responsibilities for everyone is my idea of democracy." So democracy in united state is very young and it backs to 1972 when the Equal Rights Amendment was signed by Nixon.True?
"So democracy in united state is very young and it backs to 1972 when the Equal Rights Amendment was signed by Nixon.True?" Sarcasm will get you nowhere, Hamed. No one is saying that US democracy does not have its problems. However, I will say that US minorities and women are not exactly lining up to immigrate to the Middle East. ;-) Our women in the West have always had more rights and freedoms than women in any Islamic country—at any time including during the time of Mohammed, who introduced purdah! Indeed, Muslim visitors to Europe hundreds of years ago were very shocked that Western women were permitted to walk about unveiled in "mixed" company. How could one "control" these wanton women if they were permitted freedom—the Muslim visitors wanted to know. LOL It appears to me that you don't really want to learn about democracy or why it functions... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Why are we so interested in discussion on religion and democracy? ?? If we are going to stablish an stable democracy shouldn't we take care about the problems happens after obtaining the democray before the time we face them? If the answer is yes, how many of us are taking care about it? Shouldn't we look at the post by ali on "A Case for an Iranian Asset Bubble and the Role of Iranian Credit Markets"? When we left Iran we had a very good vision of its current problems and difficulties.For a while or more we are going to study out side of Iran, how long could we maintain the true vision of Iran? A true vision is the direct result of interaction .How could we take care about mutual homogeneous comunication with Iranian people? A democratic motion has to be within the public. what is the best... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I believe US was a democratic country even when women didn't have the same rights. Now it is definitely better. I believe the same about Islamic country. Even if they can establish a democracy among Muslims without any rights for others, it is one step forward, it is good and it is better than absolute dictatorship. Believe me or not, it can be done without changing Islam which is not something easy to do. Let us do this step, then we will think about minorities. I remind you that even this sort of democracy is missing in many Islamic countries. I have no doubt that you have been successful, but we don't not agree about the causes and the methods completely. I think also there are many people in the west who do not agree with you.
"It always seems to me that the people on these sites have nothing but criticism for the West, but our societies work better than theirs regardless. However, they only see the underbelly and not the positives. Why is that?" 1-Change requires time, don't you think so? 2-During my childhood, When I was reading western stories I had not been able to understand why a sunny day is counted as a good day.I had opposite feeling that rainy day is perfect.Now I understand why in europe sunny day is better than rainy one. However all european could not find why a rainy day is counted bettter in Iran. 3-really "Why is that?" so.
comment removed in accord with FToI Comment Policy, Rule 2. Editors believe this discussion should continue elsewhere via e-mail. So, Maryam, if you wish to do so, please leave an e-mail address here or contact the editors at free[@]freethoughts[.]org.
Thought it may not seem so, but I really try to avoid including in my comments what can be found elsewhere on the internet in their entirety. I rather give links. Therefore I think copying and pasting the Bill of Rights in a comment is not appropriate when you can simply provide a link. Just my opinion.
Comment removed in accord with FToI Comment policy, Rule 2.
Comment removed accroding to Rule 2 of FToI Comment Policy. The truth is defensible in a court of law in the West—libel is not. Blaming the victim as you do here and justifying censorship: http://freethoughts.org/archives/000391.html is the same logic that suicide jihadis have—it is all the fault of the "other." Muslims are never at fault. It is always the "other" who "provokes" them. Muslims attack and blame others for telling the truth. Amazing! Note that the most recent mass murderer of both Muslims and Jews, Reem Raiyshi mother of two small children, holds the Qu’ran the book that tells her it is good to murder innocents in the name of Islam: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040115/481/jrl10601151400 I posted on subject with relevance as I saw it with the TRUTH and used supporting passages from the Qu'ran and the hadith as well as some personal information to support my position. Maryam used that information... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Why don't Maryam and Wessie send their thoughts as well worded articles to FToI to be published as entries? It is much easier to understand what they say if they write coherent articles than writing their short confusing comments.
“. . . I really try to avoid including in my comments what can be found elsewhere on the internet in their entirety. I rather give links. Therefore I think copying and pasting the Bill of Rights in a comment is not appropriate when you can simply provide a link. Señor Græd, it appears that many people receive their comments via e-mail and thus are not able to follow links as necessary. I felt that the Bill of Rights was so very relevant to this discussion to warrant posting it. So far, no one seems to feel that such a Bill of Rights might be relevant or valuable in their efforts to set up a democracy. Wessie
why can't you just statet the good things about democracy? Do you really need the page that long jsut to tell why it is good. It could be done in like 30 sentences.
"why can't you just statet the good things about democracy? Do you really need the page that long jsut to tell why it is good. It could be done in like 30 sentences." It is not a matter of the "good things about democracy." This is supposed to be a discussion isn't it? It is a matter of Muslims comprehending the rule of secular law; that freedom means responsibilities. That democracy means order, not the right to do whatever one pleases at the expense of other people. It is wise for those who wish to have democracy in their lands to look at the documents and the laws that make the Western democracies and republics work. However, I do not believe that any sort of democracy will ever be possible under fascist Islam. Again I say, an Islamic democracy is an oxymoron! These sorts of cowardly deeds and statements... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Even if they can establish a democracy among Muslims without any rights for others, it is one step forward, it is good and it is better than absolute dictatorship. Believe me or not, it can be done without changing Islam which is not something easy to do." Hamed, I completely and utterly disagree! Can you show us how, under the tenets of Islam if these are really followed, this would be possible? And the other thing is a contradiction. "Rights for Muslims without any rights for others" is not rights—it's dhimmihood and discrimination! That won't fly in the modern world. (See above post.) "Change requires time, don't you think so? Daanaa, Islam has been on the planet the same time while the rest of the world moved forward. Why have Muslims stayed in the middle ages—at best? I believe it is because of repressive Islam that mandates "no changes."... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
I do agree with you Wessie that islamic democracy is an impossiblity. But any religious democracy is an impossibility. You might argue or take history as evidence that Christain faith or Jewish faith has the seeds of democracy in it, but that's hardly relevant; as far as religion is not separated from the state, and thus marginalzied in the game of power, no true democracy has become possible. I quite disagree with you on "that democracy means order, not the right to do whatever one pleases at the expense of other people." Granted, democracy brings with it a sort of stable social order, but it's only an outcome, the outcome that makes it so desirable. democracy is about people having the power to run their society, all of the people. This simple principle along with the ideals of freedom makes the basis of democracy, human rights, rights of the... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Babak, certainly democracy means order with rights for all. That is why we have laws that protect civil rights. Even under a Western monarchy there is democratic order i.e. some Nordic countries, Belgium, the UK, Japan, etc. We have much more order in the West under democratic republics or democratic monarchies than there is in ANY Muslim land. However, what we constantly see is Muslims coming to the West and wanting to use our freedoms against us— demanding special rights for Muslims—with the goal of Islamicizing the West. No Way! "When would you stop denying yourself and us a real chance of discussion, one in which one would actually learn something new and exciting, not one in which one is bored by your outright, religious opposition to everyone and anyone middle-eastern or nominally/officially muslim, I wonder?" I have no opposition to anyone Middle Eastern or Muslim. In fact, I... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Here, again— Islamic terror! Every day there is Islamic terror against innocents somewhere in the world. Pakistan church blast injures 11 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3399479.stm A car bomb near a church in the Pakistani city of Karachi has injured at least 11 people, police say. The powerful blast happened shortly after police received an anonymous telephone warning that a bible society near the church would be targeted. The explosion is the first attack on Pakistan's small Christian community for more than a year. . . . . . In 2002, six attacks on Christian targets left more than 40 people dead. The most vicious was at a Christian society in Karachi, when gunmen tied up seven people and shot them execution-style. . . " --- You want to have a discussion? Let's talk about why it is that Muslims every time they are "angry" about anything murder other innocent people? What happened... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie, You again evaded the truth, by producing some irrelavant comments, mostly incorrect. You use yourself the term "democratic monarchy," that admits the existance of democracy there; the "monarchy" bit, as everyone knows, is symbolic and irrelevant. Canadians are also all subjects of her Majesty, but when in practice that matters, I wonder? I was trying to tell that "order" is by no means what democracy is about; you said nothing related in response. You are yourself still to answer the question you asked: how to have democracy in Islamic countries? Where did I miss it in your pile of words? Let me tell you that I agree that "islam" is and has been the source of quite a lot of problems in our land. So, is the problem solved? Hardly so. That people should reach the same conclusion needs more than one person's admission to it, and far... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"You again evaded the truth, by producing some irrelavant comments," Babak, perhaps it's a language barrier. I found my comments to be very relevant. That is why I wrote them. "You are yourself still to answer the question you asked: how to have democracy in Islamic countries? Where did I miss it in your pile of words? You must have missed it. Here is what I said above: "There can be no democracy under Islam!" I have said several times that Islamic democracy is an oxymoron! In other words, I don't believe there can ever be a democracy in an Islamic country until, if, there is a Reformation in Islam. That means that Muslims need to: 1) Renounce the violent, supremacist tenets of Islam against the "unbeliever." 2) Make Islam strictly a religion and not a political entity. A separation of mosque and state if you will. I don't... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"I do agree with you Wessie that islamic democracy is an impossiblity." See, Babak, you said it yourself above. It can't work. Read this article to understand the difference between American democracy and European democracies. I think the article applies to not only Iraq but also to all Islamic nations. George Will does not seem to believe that democracy will come to Islamic nations either. Can We Make Iraq Democratic? http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_can_we_make_iraq.html "The histories of America and Europe have given rise to markedly different judgments about democracy and nationalism. Americans have cheerful thoughts, and Europeans have dark thoughts, about uniting democracy and nationalism. Hence Americans and Europeans have different ideas of what constitutions should do—ideas that lead to different valuations of international laws and institutions. Americans believe that a democracy’s constitution should arise from, and reflect the particularities of, that nation’s distinctive political culture. Europeans’ quite different idea of constitutions... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Comment removed in violation of Rule 2 of comment policy.
Wessie, You must be blind then. You know full well, if you have read Qur'an (not Qu'ran, by the way) that doing what you demand a muslim to do will be punished by death, the same way Salman Rushdie was sentenced to death. So, please be a bit more realistic, and say something doable. Yes, in theory your response sounds as a solution, but it is anything but. That's exactly why your presumptuous attitude towards this web site in particular and muslims in general has no practical outcome except for death and destruction, either of muslim countries (not Islam, I might add) or the West under the mindless terror attacks of Islamic extremists. Your method results in a lose-lose situation for humanity. No, I do not pay zakat, and I do not believe in Qur'anic truth. I was almost denied an admission to my garduate studies in Iran just... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Here is a link, in case you are enticed to read it: Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
" by the way) that doing what you demand a muslim to do will be punished by death, the same way Salman Rushdie was sentenced to death. So, please be a bit more realistic, and say something doable. Yes, in theory your response sounds as a solution, but it is anything but. That's exactly why your presumptuous attitude towards this web site in particular and muslims in general has no practical outcome except for death and destruction, either of muslim countries (not Islam, I might add) or the West under the mindless terror attacks of Islamic extremists. Your method results in a lose-lose situation for humanity." So, Babak you are saying what we all know, that if Muslims renounce the violent, misanthropic, misogynistic parts of the Qur'an and the hadith that this would render them apostates and then some wacko, Islamofascist would have license to murder them as prescribed... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Western democracy and the rule of law in action. This will be an interesting case to follow. I have full confidence that at the end of the day the rule of law will be restored and the prisoners given their day in court. I also have full confidence that "someone" will be made to pay for the wrongs that are being committed in the name of "national security." It may take a while. . . Wessie Bush's Power to Plan Trial of Detainees Is Challenged http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/16/national/16GITM.html WASHINGTON, Jan. 15 — Five uniformed military lawyers assigned to defend detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have filed a brief with the Supreme Court, challenging the basis of President Bush's plan to use military tribunals without civilian court review to try some of the detainees there. In their 30-page brief, filed late Wednesday, the lawyers assert that President Bush worked to "create a... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie: "So, Babak you are saying what we all know, that if Muslims renounce the violent, misanthropic, misogynistic parts of the Qur'an and the hadith that this would render them apostates and then some wacko, Islamofascist would have license to murder them as prescribed in the Qur'an. What a clever man that Mohammed was. Under the threat of death most people would eat dog dirt." Good there! That got across safely! And yes, we all know that, only your solution does not seem to do. Yes I have seen the book by Ibn Warraq, and I have read Salman Rushdie, even back in Iran: his "Midnight's Children" and "Shame" were both translated into Persian and "Shame" even won the IR's prize for the best translation of the year! Then they were all banned, of course. Wessie: "...if people like Salman Rushdie, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina and a host of... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie, (yawn) we muslims must end islamic terror by our selves, you won't do that for us, Islam is very bad, you don't like to stand in long lines in the airport and you are very american by choice, a little bit too much I dare say but anyway, oh yes and we muslims must have guts and correct everything caue you're not gonna do it for us etc. (yawn again) have anything new or are you gonna repeat yourself till judgement ( I mean the Christian one, cause that's the one whose trend you like and is compatible with democracy, of course) come? (yawn yet again)
or is it 'till kongdom come'? Sorry, my English ( and probably Persian as well) is not even half as good as yours, but I'm just a mere muslim so it is no surprise....
'kingdom' damn it! Oh I must be very muslim...
Babak, your responses are those of a typical middle eastern, male chauvinist pig—Muslim or otherwise. My "solution" as you call it is nothing of the sort. I have said Islam needs a Reformation —but Muslims have to do that–not I. All I asked is that YOU, personally, denounce the misanthropic, misogynistic passages of the Qur'an. Which, you, gutless wonder, have not done! Personally, I don't think a reformation will help at all. Islam needs to disappear as Muslims become enlightened. And yes, Babak, democracy IS Western! It was conceived by the Greeks not the Asians or the Arabs. Democracy is Western. The Islamic states have rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Whether you personally believe in it is of no consequence, when millions of Muslims don't have rights because they won't get off their indolent derrieres and overthrow the theocratic despots who rule them. Inshallah = Islamic backwardness.... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Wessie, Please respect freethoughts.org's comment policy. By "abusing" offensive words you might loose your right to comment: "middle eastern ..." is an obvious racist comment, regardless of how you felt when you wrote it, it is very very inappropriate and does not appear to be a suitable response to Babak, considering his language. If you are doing this only for the sake of provoking people to write stupid or hate material in your response, you have not come to the correct place. People who are using this website, REALLY, want to go beyond the hate words and to have an opportunity to think, and to decide "FREELY" in the light of everyone else's opinions, how is best for them to REACT. Please do not obscure people's right to think clearly with offensive words and expressions!
Enlightenment shall come.
""middle eastern ..." is an obvious racist comment, regardless of how you felt when you wrote it, it is very very inappropriate and does not appear to be a suitable response to Babak, considering his language." Babak was very insulting and derisive to me in several posts. But, that does not appear to matter much to you. Why don't you criticize him for his insults? Since when is "Middle Eastern" a racist slur??? What other word should one use for people who live or hail from the Middle East (a geographic region) other than Middle Eastern? If one says "Arab" then the "Persians" will object. Since all people from the ME are not Muslims I did not use that word. What words would you prefer when one refers to people living in "that" region of the world? Ozymandias I MET a Traveler from an antique land, Who said, "Two... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Please do not obscure people's right to think clearly with offensive words and expressions!" Exactly! Babak behaved offensively. I thought clearly enough to name him what he is: a male chauvinist from the Middle East! Oink! The truth will out. --- Chauvinist definition: ". . . smug irrational belief in the superiority of one's own race, party, sex, etc. example: male chauvinism" MEMCP = A male living or hailing from the Middle East who believes this, yet still wants a visa to the West: • "You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam." Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80 A Muslim male who believes this: • "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
It's the "pig" they are talking about... they dropped it to be more polite.
[This comment was deleted for violating the comment policy.] http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=8720 "Condoleeza Rice is a jungle creature" As I recall a Muslim psychiatrist, whose name escapes me now, said that. If that is not blatant racism I don't know what is. Any of you ever complain about this sort of thing to Middle Easterners? Wessie -->
[NOTE TO EDITORS AND HAMED: please don't remove this irrelevant comment!] Wessie, I thought I knew you Wessie, but now that I think of it, maybe not. I am not a preacher of victimization of Muslims, they all deserve what they get [like those others who hate them blindly and of course deserve what they get]. however I have a few points to make. Not that I completely disagree with your views, but mine and yours seem to be very related in conclusion, but vastly different in their approach: [1] Some people who are responding to your comments are not Muslims/ME's. [2] Almost [but less than] half of them were female. [3] It appears to me that when there is a reasonable criticism of your ideas, you tend to ignore it, however as soon as someone says something that you can find disagreeable within your circle of common sense,... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Dear Wessie, This would be my last comment to you, unless you say something new for a change. This is the conclusion I have reached from the current series of comments from you and others who have responded to you that I like to share with every one here. Unfortunately I have to agree with Maryam that there is something not well in place with the way you comment here. I don't know where you come from, you say you are a northern european blond white. I also think you are probably from Germany. It pains me to have to write this here, but I think you have some problems with your life. Your world view is very similar to a neo-nazi but you disguise it under American patriotism and a defence of western democracy (which I by the way ADORE!) Unfortunately you are a fake. You try to... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
"Kaveh Kh. at January 18, 2004 01:53 PM: [NOTE TO EDITORS AND HAMED: please don't remove this irrelevant comment!]" Kaveh, I have been sort of keeping track of the amount of "irrelevant" comments that get to stay and those that get removed. I could link to scores of "irrelevant" comments that are left because they are made by Iranians or Middle Easterners or Muslims here and not by people such as me who are critical of Muslims and Middle Easterners who do nothing to fix their miserable lands. I stick to the point I have made that the site is hypocritical in its policies and censors unfairly—just like "back home." Let's see if your comments get to stay. ;-) Either way it will prove my point. --- "Why do you keep generalizing? Does every Christian you know go to church regularly and acts according to Christianity in every aspect... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
Well, I for one am going to be silent from now on. Wessie revealed herself well enough for anyone with a decent mind to judge for herself/himself. So: no comment, period.
Dear FToI Editors: From the beginning I felt that this last posting was coming. The person/persons (woman, American, European, and/or very possibly a Middle Eastern, South Asian, or African) who want(s) to be known as Wessie constantly tried to use polemic and most often extremely insulting comments to take us to this point that this/ese person(s) wanted to see us taken, that is, "you are not tolerant" and you conduct censorship. Even though, in my opinion, FToI visitors and contributors have very much exhibited the tolerance that proves their interest in not being pluralist enough and interested in openness, the person, and I would add persons, known as "Wessie" insist that "censorship" is being committed against them: ":;-) Either way it will prove my point." It is my opinion that these types of intolerant attacks have to be dealt with so that many of those who have a word... [more at the permalink of the entry above]
In life you'll meet a lot of jerks. If they hurt you, tell yourself that it's because they're stupid. That will help you from reacting to their cruelty. Because there is nothing worse than bitterness and vengeance... Always keep your dignity and be true to yourself. Grandma's advice to Marji -- Persepolis, by Marjane Satrapi