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June 13, 2006

Women's Rights Gathering in Tehran
Golbarg Bashi  [info|posts]
00280-13.jpg

Picture Courtesy of kosoof.com

As already reported and verified by the BBC, Iranian women's peaceful sit-in on June 12th 2006, was immediately broken up by the police in Tehran. Female police officers beat women's rights campaigners with clubs and used pepper gas sprays to disperse their peaceful assembly.

For a longer, more comprehensive report about the events in Tehran and a critical analysis of the Iranian women's movement, you may like to read my 14th June article in Opendemocracy or Payvand News.

Please also note that Human Rights First has now launched a campaign for the release of Ali Akbar Mousavi Khoini who is still in detention since his 12th June arrest.

The June 12 sit-in had been widely advertised online and was a peaceful plea to the Iranian government to change its unequal gender laws, as follows:

  • Abolition of polygamy
  • The right of divorce by women (currently only men have such a right)
  • Joint custody of children for women and men
  • Equal rights in marriage
  • Increasing the minimum legal age for girls to 18
  • Equal rights for women as witnesses

The protest was initiated by a coalition of women's rights activists. Approximately 2000 people signed the petition on behalf of this peaceful protest.

The coalition of women's rights activists' has asked for national and international support for the peaceful and rightful demands and the release of all the arrested activists.

Comments
Mohammad at June 14, 2006 12:08 AM [permalink]:

Ms. Bashi,

Is there any petition circling around, or any concereted campaign being planned, to support these activists and their actions?

I would be grateful if you would please help me. The list of demands posted are the "very least" that should be changed. A full review of Iranian legal system with a view towards full equality for all citizens, and especially with a view towards abolition of gender-based discrimination is long oer due.

Thanks for bringing up this crucial issue.

Golbarg Bashi at June 14, 2006 12:16 AM [permalink]:

Here is a Human Rights First petition:

http://action.humanrightsfirst.org/campaign/IranWomen?qp_source=ga%5fadv

Misneach at June 15, 2006 09:30 PM [permalink]:

Has there at least been any progress on the proposed bill to allow women into sporting matches?

I don't see how, in modern times, a government of a proud people could show such little respect to man's better half (so to speak).

Armin at June 16, 2006 02:12 PM [permalink]:

The question is: "Equal" or Fair?

* Abolition of polygamy

- It would be easier to accept that you are a liberal not being mind-controlled by the media if you had said the right to Polygamy should be given to women too, instead of taking a man's right from him. Two women are willing to marry a man, any problem in this case?


* The right of divorce by women (currently only men have such a right)

- The DEFAULT right of divorce is given to men in Islam not the right of divorce (the biased media often ignore this important difference), women just need to legally mention it when they want to marry and they will have the right.


* Equal rights in marriage

- Aren't the rights totally equal? For example, women do not need to work for money, but can do research, study or ... according to their will. Maybe it is one of the reasons behind the higher percentage of female university students in Iran.

* Increasing the minimum legal age for girls to 18

- If a girl dos not understand, her legal age is already 18 or more. If most of them understand, then why should a rule ignore them? Should they be left to disturb people as teenagers do in some western contries?


* Joint custody of children for women and men
* Equal rights for women as witnesses

- How about equal payments for everyone? I know it is different, but it has some common things with equal rights which are complex to analyze and needs time (people with more iq often earn more while it is via inheritance). What if the witness-IQ of men is more in most/Many cases?


Armin at June 16, 2006 02:16 PM [permalink]:

I meant they have a higher iq genetically.

AIS at June 17, 2006 01:29 AM [permalink]:

Well, you are proof Armin that men's IQ is definitely not higher than women. You are a living proof of that.

Craig at June 17, 2006 12:23 PM [permalink]:

Armin... WTF?

How can somebody sophisticated enough to use the internet have such backwards thinking? Or do you really believe that women are chattel?

Armin at June 17, 2006 09:59 PM [permalink]:

AIS,

You can be a much stronger proof when you defend Ariel Sharon, when you insult people, or when you introduce yourself as an IQ test!

Armin at June 17, 2006 10:05 PM [permalink]:

Craig,

Please do not insult people, bring reasons, I just said that women may have a lower witness-IQ which is not a problem unless you think IQ or witness-IQ is a value rather than something like height or money. I think men and women are equal, not in some of the unimportant things, but in their ability to be a human which is the most important.

Armin at June 17, 2006 10:26 PM [permalink]:

By the way, maybe you can tell me why women earn less money than men for their work in average?

(it does not show that women are worse, it's just a fact that shows men "probably" do usual jobs better in average)

Craig at June 18, 2006 12:41 AM [permalink]:

Armin, I'm not going to argue with you about something like this. Either you believe that women are equal (under the law) to men, or you do not. I think it's pretty obvious where you stand.

sahar at June 18, 2006 03:36 PM [permalink]:

Armin,

Interesting point of view. Did you go to Ghom for your schooling? Surely sound like mullah.

I am so disgusted that I am not going to argue with ech and every point you have made. But your lst point. You claimed that men do their job better on average? That is why they get paid better? Since when did we have incoms according to the quality of work in IRan? In Iran anyone who is theif is rich and anyone who works hard is not. In Iran a Sabziforoush (market sales person) has a lot mmore money than any doctor professor, and specially teacher.

Iran is so backwards economically that the mount people earn surely doesn't show their abilities, but their willingness to steal from others.

sahar at June 18, 2006 03:39 PM [permalink]:

By the way to clear things up:

1. I do not mean that every sabziforoush is a thief, it was a particular one I know personally who is.

2. I lso ddn't mean that everyone who is rich is a thief, it came out wrong... I meant most of the rich in Iran are mongst people who are willing to do things that are usually counted as immoral. like stealing, "reshve khari" and such.

Armin at June 18, 2006 07:44 PM [permalink]:

Rude Sahar,

"You claimed that men do their job better on average?"

- I said probably and I was not talking about Iran (when I said men are paid more in average).

(by the way, scientifically and based on statistics, Iran has an average economy in the world with a good GDP growth of about 6% and a GDP PPP per capita near world average)

A Reader at June 18, 2006 07:46 PM [permalink]:

It seems that many of you prefer to fight in a rude way, than to argue in a reasonable way.

Armin at June 18, 2006 07:56 PM [permalink]:

Craig,

OK, everything is clear for you and you know everything about people who come to different conclusions!!! Don't talk and be fed by the media that tell you how to think!

I think men and women have differences and logically a few rules should be based on those differences. Are you itching to argue that avrage height of women is equal to men? Or their physcal power?

Something like witness-IQ is like height or Physical power.


(Is there anybody here who can do a
more scientific discussion, free from accusations and rudeness?)

Amazon.com at June 18, 2006 09:02 PM [permalink]:

Those of you who think mullahs are the only ones who believe ... Check out the new book by a Harvard professor: "Manliness"

Craig at June 18, 2006 11:45 PM [permalink]:

Armin, men and women are not the same, and I don't argue that they are. However, men and women must be treated the same under the law - or there is no law. All people, regardless of race, nationality, sex, eductaion, class or any other consideration MUST BE TREATED THE SAME UNDER THE LAW. This is a fundamental pre-requisite for any system of justice. To do otherwise, is to institutionalize injustices right into teh so-called justice system.

Justice is blind, as they say. I don't want to argue with you about it, because I really don't know how to argue this point. It seeems completely obvious to me. I'm not trying to be rude, I honestly don't understand how you can have the opinions that you have.

sahar at June 19, 2006 03:27 AM [permalink]:

Why was I rude? I really didn't want to be. If you felt I was rude, I appologize. I just wanted to point something obvious out, and your reply was not relevant. Of course, I knew it would not be. That is why I didn't waste my time arguing about your other points.

If that is rude, sorry again before hand.
The truth is bitter, as Persian saying says.

Craig at June 19, 2006 03:59 AM [permalink]:

Armin,

(Is there anybody here who can do a
more scientific discussion, free from accusations and rudeness?)

I hope it's not rude to reference the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, while we are discussing a protest for women's rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Where are the UN resolutions condemning the IRI for this human rights violation? Where? Nevermind. I already know the answer. Human Rights are only for democracies. We all know that.

AIS at June 20, 2006 11:37 PM [permalink]:

Armin,

Do you also believe that,say, blacks could probably have lower IQ or witness-IQ than whites? If not, why not? They have different physical features, no?
have you done "scientific" reaserch and have scientific proof that when it comes to IQ this is not the case?
Would you agree that criticizing discriminatory laws of the apartheid state of South Africa against blacks is just proof of lack of open mind, scientific reasoning and evidence of media brainwash?
If not, why not when you yourself say that:

"I think men and women have differences and logically a few rules should be based on those differences. Are you itching to argue that avrage height of women is equal to men? Or their physcal power?

Something like witness-IQ is like height or Physical power.


(Is there anybody here who can do a
more scientific discussion, free from accusations and rudeness?)"

Armin at June 21, 2006 03:01 AM [permalink]:

Dear Craig,

men and women are not the same, and I don't argue that they are. However, men and women must be treated the same under the law ... I honestly don't understand how you can have the opinions that you have.

- You mean a good law is the one that says they should not have benefits for their pregnancy period? Please note that not everything is as obvious as the pregnancy issue. For example it is a matter of research that what consequences women's more sensetive/sharp feelings can have on decision making under pressure or threat, for example in courts as judges or witnesses.

Dear sahar,

Why was I rude?

- Here: "I am so disgusted that I am not going to argue with ech and every point you have made."


I really didn't want to be. If you felt I was rude, I appologize.

- Now I feel you are a very polite lady.


I just wanted to point something obvious out, and your reply was not relevant.

- Please re-read. It was relevant.

Craig,

I hope it's not rude to reference the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

- It is not, but this declaration cannot be accepted word by word as something obviously right which does not need non-biased research.


AIS,

Do you also believe that,say, blacks could probably have lower IQ or witness-IQ than whites? If not, why not? They have different physical features, no?have you done "scientific" reaserch and have scientific proof that when it comes to IQ this is not the case?

- I see you are trying to reason instead of accusing. Nice change of tone. Shortly, sex-related differences are much more than differences related to colour. In the latter those differences result in differences between some rules of using creams on skin or things like that, while the inclination of sexes in using their abilities including their mental abilities have some differences which is not to be disregarded. Women tend to invest their abiities for social and emotional assets more than men do, while men prefer to rival for indistrial and scientific achievements more than women. This is only one of the differences (of course a major one). Men's ability to lead industrial and scientific achievements has practically proved to be more than women until these days (just browse the statistics of both sexes in management/scientist roles). I believe mwomen and en as humans have a great ability to change themselves and achieve their goals, to the extent that they have the ability to change roles (complete shatter of the present statistics). But there's a fact and a question:

Fact: Until they don't, we should be realistic and accept the reality's cosequences.

Question: Is it good for the human kind to push the idea of men-like women or there are better ways of advancement?


Armin at June 21, 2006 03:44 AM [permalink]:

Please note these facts as well:

1. Maybe as a rough estimation I can say not more than 1% of the rules of Islam are sex related, but these rules are more magnfied and reported by people because of some reasons.

2. Islam is not in Toziholmasayel (the most widespread book of Shia Jurisdication), it is in Quran and its Gnostic Interpretation in which most of the ethical rules and guidances are sexless.

3. Westerners withdrew the emotional and social assets of their civilization and converted it to economical and scientific assets. Certainly it does not consist most of their economical and scientific asset, but it seems to have robbed them of most of their emotional and social (thus maybe ethical!?) assets. This Venus to Mars exchange would be good to some extent, but not this much! There would be better ways to serve both Venus and Mars.

Best Wishes

A Reader at June 21, 2006 03:46 AM [permalink]:

Jurisprudence I meant, not jurisdication.

Sadaf at June 21, 2006 07:58 AM [permalink]:

that's absurd. there are many scientist women in the workforce. true,men and women are different , but if you look at it, all the humans are different actually, Armin, if you read the history of your own country, you would find out that for 3000 years in antiquity, women were rulers in Iran, and inheritance was via the woman's line. those rulers were called IRAN BAAN, and they are very famous in the Iranian ancient history, but since you only had Mullahs as your educator, you are not gonna believe me. Iran was very prospreous at that time compared to the rest of the antiquity, but look at Iran now, where people with the same mentality as yours are rulers, Iran is zip compared to other countries, even Guatemala is doing much better than we do.
in a free country, that every person is totally unresricted to pursue what s/he wants to choose as a profession, everyone is in their right place and the economy prospers because each and every talent is invested in its right place. women just like men are allowed to choose science, arts, politics, or making a family and settling down first according to their needs and wants. we are equal before the law, no matter what, whether we are men or women. in Iran you pay the woman for the pregnancy period that she goes through like the way you treat a common laborer, but in America and other free countries, you give the custody of the child to woman because of the pregnancy she went through. which one is more humane or better for the woman?
well, Armin, just as I said in the previous discussion on that article of Hazhir and his naggings about not being able to get a foreign visa, " FINE, I AM NOT GONNA ARGUE WITH YOU, BUT I HOPE DANGEROUS PEOPLE IIKE YOU NEVER STEP ON OUR SHORES, AND I AM NOT GONNA ADDRESS YOU ANYMORE, EVEN IF YOU YELL OUT FROM THE END OF YOUR THROAT BECAUSE YOU JUST WANNA FIGHT AS ARASH PREVIOUSLY SAID, YOU ARE A MULLAH OR A BRAINWASHED BY MULLAHS" , MAY GOD'S FORGIVENESS AND MENTAL HEALING COME TO YOU
AMEN


SADAF

Craig at June 21, 2006 12:18 PM [permalink]:

Armin,

- It is not, but this declaration cannot be accepted word by word as something obviously right which does not need non-biased research.

Yes it can. It's INTERNATIONAL LAW, my friend. The IRI is in violation of it. Which is nothing new, of course. I'm just wondering how it that you think human rights are negotiable. Human rights are considered to be innate, and possessed by all human beings.

Craig at June 21, 2006 12:32 PM [permalink]:

Armin, one more point I'd like to make, unrelated to male/female issues, since you seem to think that's a red herring.

I'm fairly well to do, here in America, and I come from a very old American family. I'm also pretty well connected socially. If you immigrated to the US and were putting yourself through school as a student, you'd have substatially lower status than I have. We would not be the same, correct?

In your opinion, does that mean I should be able to steal from you, exploit you, physically abuse you, or otherwise victimize you... and there should be nothing you can (realistically) do about it? Just because I am a more "important" person than you are?

That looks like what you are saying, to me. And honestly, that used to be our way. Not just in America, but everywhere in the world. It's not our way, anymore. And I, for one, am very glad about that. I'm really not liking your way of thinking. If there are a large number of Iranians who think the way you do, then there really isn't much hope for Iran's future. I've been hearing about how young people in Iran are progressive and modern, and ready to join the rest of mankind in the 21st century. Is that not the case?


AIS at June 21, 2006 07:04 PM [permalink]:

Armin,

I repeat my question because you don't seem to get it:How do you know what fields are related to racial differences and what fields are not?

"While the inclination of sexes in using their abilities including their mental abilities have some differences which is not to be disregarded. Women tend to invest their abiities for social and emotional assets more than men do, while men prefer to rival for indistrial and scientific achievements more than women."

and where may I ask does this intense wisdom of yours regarding what women do come from? You have a special gift of seeing how women and men use their abilities? Maybe the Al-guy has started talking to you to at midnights?
There is absolutely no difference between discriminating based on race or based on sex. They are both equally repugnant because they reduce the personality, the famouse "content of character" of a human being to her bodily organs, color of her skin or the shape and functionality of her sexual organs.

Sexism is simply an extremely stinky and ugly form of racism.
The fact that it is endorsed by certain self acclaimed "divine" cult lunacies that have infected humanity for millenia says all one needs to know about the "sublime" origins of those cults who call themselves with lofty names, and their brainwashed fanatic pathetic followers.

I always use reason, forcefully. It is the likes of you who moan and weep when confronted by your bigotry, fanaticism and ignorance.

Sadaf at June 22, 2006 04:09 PM [permalink]:

Craig:
about the thing you mentioned that in case lots of Iranians think like Armin, there would be no hope for Iran's joining the 21st stream of mankind... I would like to comment on that, as someone that has lived in those cultures, both Iranian and American, I can find a very distinct contrast between them. quite unbiasedly American culture is much more superior to the Iranian culture. all my American relatives are cool, laid-back, easy-going, and fun to hang out with, they usually lie less frequently, and they don't have to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, or anything with a distinct title on it to be happy. in contrast to them, my Iranian relatives or shall say majority of them are just the opposite of what my American relatives are. from the Iranian movies that I see and my older Iranian relatives that were raised in Iran, I can tell you that there are many people like Armin in Iran with such a backward mentality and Armin, in my opinion, is a typical case of the lay Iranian fellow that you might find in Bazaar in downtown Tehran. don't waste your time arguing with him, it is useless. even some of my doctor relatives that are also Iranian American but had reached their maturity in Iran, are as brainless as Armin, their culture is just the same stinky culture as Armin's, so I think we should all live our own life, enjoying the sun and the beautiful day out there and pray God have mercy on them.
Amen
:)
Sadafyyyy

Sadaf at June 22, 2006 08:07 PM [permalink]:

Armin, instead of giving shitty statistics, unsound logics, and complaining about America, read the following article of how Iranian girls and women are treated in Iran and get sold into sexual slavery in the Arab countries by the full knowledge and silent assent of the Islamic Republic...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11791.

[The pasted content is removed by an Editor. Please refer to the above link. ]

AIS at June 23, 2006 05:17 PM [permalink]:

Craig,

the likes of Armin who are hardcore islamists is somewhere around 5% of the population. Th eproblem is it is the 5% that has all the guns and control. I guess this guy, Armin, is probably hanging out in teh West with the financial backing of the regime, a bursary "student" pf some sort or other.

This doesn't mean that the majority are enlightened. I'd agree that a lot of such crap is still quite prevelant in the society. But I think the more important factor is that perhaps for the first time in many many years, the majority of youger generations are so fed up that they are opne to new ideas and ready, some more some less, to critically view their handed traditions and norms, and are more ready than most places to change them within their own homes when compared to better ideas. That is the signifixant fact I think. The direction of the trend, not the status quo.

Jerks and Filth like Armin will of course always be around, but as time goes by they are pushed more and more to teh margines. Once power is finally taken away from them and their ideological masters, they will continue their miserable lives in the gutters and lunatic finges of the societu like the case in other civilized parts of the world. Hopefully.

Armin at June 26, 2006 12:58 AM [permalink]:
Sadaf, "that's absurd. there are many scientist women in the workforce." - I was taling about the statistics, not the non-existance of such women, and as I said human has unlimited capabilities, let alone being able to change her/his role in the society. "true,men and women are different , but if you look at it, all the humans are different actually" - Yes, and when there's enough difference, there are different rules, from simple things like salary to political power. "if you read the history of your own country, you would find out that for 3000 years in antiquity, women were rulers in Iran" - I've read about that claim (right or wrong, I don't know). Anyway, it is nothing important, in terms of demonstrating capabilities of human, to manage a group of other humans ordinary jobs (management). but since you only had Mullahs as your educator, you are not gonna believe me. - No, because I have heard many lies from historians, but the story can be true, no problem. - And: It is rude to say "you only had Mullahs as your educator". You have a very close mind about religious people and their differences. Iran was very prospreous at that time - only an ancient claim and possibly exaggeration (prosperty from telling things like the name "asb" has come from "as-pa"?) but look at Iran now, - e.g. Iran has ranked 1st in publication growth in 1994-2005 and it has over 50% female university students. where people with the same mentality as yours are rulers, - People like me do not rule Iran. You seem to be very weak in understanding religious people and religion. in a free country ... women just like men are allowed to choose science, arts, politics, or making a family and settling down first according to their needs and wants. - Like Iran. we are equal before the law - but the law itself has recognized difference. in America and other free countries, you give the custody of the child to woman because of the pregnancy she went through. which one is more humane or better for the woman? - First America is not a free country with that dollar/power greedy media kings, and you can't associate the extraordinary crimes of US government (as US intellectuals like Chomsky also agree to) with freedom. There is freedom to some extent. That's it. By the way, you can't argue reasonably and without being rude, can you? Pray for your healing first. Craig, Human rights are considered to be innate, and possessed by all human beings. - The question is: what are those innate rights. Just naming something international does not help. It's science and the present "story" is just one version of it being broadcasted because of political power of those people promoting it. Our version has a few percents of variation and we have scientific reasons for it. male/female issues, ... you seem to think that's a red herring. - ???, why do you conclude that way? I will accept the results of scientific discussion. ... In your opinion, does that mean I should be able to steal from you, exploit you, physically abuse you, or otherwise victimize you... and there should be nothing you can (realistically) do about it? Just because I am a more "important" person than you are? That looks like what you are saying, to me. And honestly, that used to be our way. Not just in America, but everywhere in the world. It's not our way, anymore. - It is very similar to the US government's way in the world. If there are a large num ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Armin at June 26, 2006 01:14 AM [permalink]:

sadaf,

... [to] give the custody of the child to woman because of the pregnancy she went through ...

- Child's custody is not a prize given to somebody, otherwise it would certainly go to mother. There are many things to consider and in many cases it goes to mother. We can talk about it more if you can be polite and logical.

Sadaf at June 26, 2006 08:10 AM [permalink]:

instead of repeating other people's words( paragraphs long) and giving a one word or a sentence-lenghted answer to it, you can address each of us without reminding us what we said ourselves. if your brain functions better that way, it's fine, whatever.
armin, by the way, are you residing in the US, please do let us know so that your level of Iranian manliness gets revealed to all of us, and in the cas of you living here, I would personally arrange for your deportation to your Iranian Haven so that your poor soul don't get tormented by the US evil no more! haha
I bet you get paid for even answering us in this website by the Islamimc Republic, you poor thing, you must be the only one of them to even know some English, do you?
about my family, shut your mouth, I was talking to Craig, not to you, Craig is a civilized educated American gentleman and it's ok for him to know about my family, my grand father was a congressman in Iran once, even though he passed away 6 years before the Islamic Revolution. my all family are all educated and successful, and we are also related to a very old persian family, Qajar, which are of course none of your business.
just let me know if you are in US, and don't worry about the rest of the business, I would take care of it for you

Armin at June 29, 2006 07:22 PM [permalink]:

Sadaf,

I do not have much time to waist for your unlogical claims and vilifications. I usually copy the new things you've said in the "comments" part and reply under each part fast.

Religious Iranians range from professors in Iran to professors in Harvard. They respect the good parts of every country and do not like the bad parts (whether Iran or US). They are among the most peaceful and progressive part of their society and ethically the most advanced, but you can't afford to understand that, to the extent you think for being an intellectual and tell you the logical words you do not hear much under propaganda in US, I must be paid.

(By the way, you have again heavily mixed US and US government. Are you doing this intentionally?)

Being a Qajar is supposed to be a shame if these things count (and they don't), also being in a dictator's parliament. My ancestors have been in Nader's very powerful Darbar which could be "something" if these things were to be considered. Anyway, it's a shame to rely on these things. You could be proud if you were polite.

Best Wishes
(yes, even for you)

Sadaf at June 30, 2006 08:08 AM [permalink]:

your claim about your ancestors being in Nader's Darbar is interesting, do you have any written proof for your ancestors' lineage ? well, I have proof for my claims, but I was curious to know if you have anything for yours...
My grandfather was a great man, he was not politically leaned towards any particular propaganda, he was elected by Iranian people for the parliament, and his belonging to the Qajar family was rather a coincidence, even Dr. Mosadeq was a Qajar.
you didn't answer my inquiry, because you knew that if you had revealed your real identity, whether you live in US or not and your ideas publicly, you could have got yourself in a big trouble, you are only brave enough to say these things in an anonymous web site, but I still volunteer for arranging your deportation to your beautiful Iran whenever you wish, as Craig said, US government is a democratically elected government of the United States and its American citizens, thus, it's stupid and funny to claim that there is a difference between US and the US government, our government always strives for perfection, we might not be perfect all the times, but we have a democracy and you are an enemy of the American democracy.
I am not against religion or any set of idealogies for one's life, but I am against forcing people to unwillingly accept it and that's what Iranian government does, and that's what 1400 years ago, Arabs did to Persians after conquering Iran, which they did to all their other conquered territories and that's why those countries are all Muslim even these days, and that's what Islamic government of Iran is doing right now by forcing people, even non-Muslim Iranians, non-believer Iranians, foreigners, or even jewish, Christian, Zoroastian, and Bahai believers to act and dress up like Muslims. that's complete stupidity and tyranny.
Armin, I am desparate to get you deported from America if you are living here, I don't want you to pollute our democracy by your tyrannical ideas.
I don't want to wish the best for you, because I don't like you.

Sadaf

Goli at July 3, 2006 05:33 PM [permalink]:

Armin,
You and people like you are so shallow and close minded that arguing in a case like this is just a waste of time. I suggest OPEN YOUR EYES and MINDS and maybe travel a bit if you don't know how to read to realize what bullshit you are talking about.

Sadaf at July 6, 2006 03:19 PM [permalink]:

just one last note on this discussion, since Armin is not feeling like revealing himself, just to let him know and for anyone else's concern as well, that I am very proud of being a descendant of the Qajar family of Iran and having my grand father as a congressman in Iran. and I hope that we, Iranians, or Iranian Americans like myself, take pride of where we come from, what our ancestors were, and alike.

Ben at July 10, 2006 08:16 PM [permalink]:

I belive this would be relevant: http://www.petitiononline.com/Malak/petition.html

Sadaf at July 20, 2006 01:46 PM [permalink]:

It's very brutal to stone a woman to death. it is very painful and inhumane, and it's exactly what the illegitimate Islamic Republic of Iran is doing.
God Bless America for its freedom and its great civilization

Sadaf

Sadaf at July 20, 2006 04:05 PM [permalink]:

One last note on this discussion, the reason that I put my whole name here instead of just " Sadaf", is because that unlike Armin or the illegitimate government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, or those that are afraid to talk their minds, I believe in the principles of freedom and democracy and I am not afraid to talk about them. and I hope that one day, we all find the courage and honor to defend and protect the good principles of democracy and support it.

Armin at July 21, 2006 11:05 PM [permalink]:

in the name of God,

The massacres and crimes done by the US government or by its support has caused killing of many many civillians which is not even comparable to a hundred times of civillians killed by any of most of the other countries, including Iran. This shows the vast difference between more peaceful governments like Iranian government and the US one (despite the biased media that tend to magnify killing of even one criminal in Iran and almost ignore thousands in part of US and Israel). This also reveals the great difference between honest Americans and their evil government imposing itself indirectly to them via the biased media. How much choice do Americans have under that media? In practice, a Republican or a Democrat!!!

Best Wishes

Armin at July 21, 2006 11:15 PM [permalink]:

Those killed by US and Israel are in many many cases innocent civillians. Count if you dare to see the amount of biased news you are fed. Nonverifiable propaganda aside, how many civilians have Iranians for example killed and how many are killed by US or Israel? How many wars have they initiated (propaganda and the biased media aside)?

Armin at July 22, 2006 12:26 AM [permalink]:

It is notable to say, because of baseless allegations of someone, that Iran was attacked by Omar and Spain by Omavis (people like Moavieh) who are known as very bad figures by Shia Muslims. However, it is also notable to say that Iranians turned to Shia Islam during centuries and mainly through scientfic revolutions taken place by Shia leaders (Imams). Of course, force has had some role in this issue like many other similar issues (Safavid dynasty for example), but much less than most of the similar ones, and there were also strong forces against (Shias were constantly in danger of being killed by kings, Mulims as a whole were in danger of Mongols, ...).

Muslims have generally been described in history as tolerant people compared to Christians, because minorities could live freely in many cases in Islamic countries, to the extent that minority migrations seem to have taken place based on this characteristic when there were tensions between some Christian groups.

The prophet of Islam never initated a war from the origin and only responded to the threats (directly or after some time, for example in case of Khaibar), despite people like Omar and Moavieh. If he was a warmonger his religion would have disappeared soon after him. One major difference between people in history who claim to be peaceful and those who really are is their popularty long after they die. More than a billion follower is a very strong answer to the propaganda from the time of Crusades till now!

Sadaf at July 22, 2006 04:24 AM [permalink]:

it's useless to argue with you, just go back to your backward country( Iran) and leave us all in peace . I have no more talking with you.

Armin at July 22, 2006 05:34 PM [permalink]:

You do not argue, you insult unlogically.

Sadaf at July 23, 2006 03:15 PM [permalink]:

if the truth about yourself and your nasty Islamic regime of Iran is insulting to you, then let it be, you are not man enough to put your real whole name here and say whether you live in US or not, even you are afriad of just letting your real name posted because you know the consequences of harboring terrorist and anti-democratic ideas and having hatred for the American democracy.

Olalla at August 14, 2006 03:53 PM [permalink]:

Armin,
Those killed by US and Israel are in many many cases are innocent people used as human shields by Hezzbolla. Count if you dare to see the amount of biased news you are fed. Nonverifiable propaganda aside, how many innocent civilians have Hezzbola for example killed throughout recent history. How much sneeky snake death and destruction have they initiated?(propaganda and the biased media aside)?
The funny thing is.... Hezzbolla is claiming victory when their country, Lebonan is in shambles? Why didn't they protect their people and home turf like Israel did? If I lived in Lebanon, I would not think my army was worth a dam and I certainlly would not think I won anything! How stupid is that?
If Hezzbolla didn't want disappropriate force then they should not have started a war with an Army that is bigger and better then they are. Holding off an army that is holding back is not winning. Results-damamge,etc is winning.
This is not a video game here. You get three tanks and I get three tanks? If someone kills and takes your soldiers than
If you've got it use it!!

Olalla at August 15, 2006 10:11 AM [permalink]:

Talk is sure cheap and easy?
Its like counting each victum 3 times.