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In the past days Muslims across the world have objected to a Danish newspaper running a series of cartoons that were deemed offensive to Islam. Danish embassies have been threatened, Danish goods boycotted etc. This has been the case in the past two decades with anything that was deemed to be taking Islam lightly, or anything that was deemed offensive. Islam is sacred and should not be talked about except for with total and absolute respect. On the other hand many Muslims do not see themselves responsible to respect the value systems of others with the same strictness.
Muslims may set fire to American flags (sacred to many Americans), call unbelievers najiss (impure), make racist remarks with regards to Jews etc. If the holocaust is a sensitive issue to the Jewish people, denying its existence by the Iranian president is met either with low-key encouragement or with implicit consent within the Muslim world. One could say this type of hypocrisy is also true of other religions and systems of beliefs (fundamentalists of other creeds need not take advantage), but in the case of Muslim communities it is quite prominent. The Fatwa against Rushdie (for one of his worst books that became best-selling because of the Fatwa), the threats against Aziz Nasin in Turkey, to the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats against countless intellectuals who intentionally or inadvertently managed to offend Islam are illustrations of the non-tolerance of Muslims with regards to their beliefs. This non-tolerance in my view illustrates the existence of a deep insecurity towards internal and external challenges.
There are three major consequences of this attitude. The first is without any room for challenging the sanctity of all aspects of Islam, there is little room for discussions and/or reformation. The second is that a lot of unhealthy dynamics that have evolved over the past 14 centuries through the interactions of Islam with various societies continue unquestioned and are considered part of a sacred tradition. What is sacred is beyond analysis. The third and most important consequence is that in applying the unquestioning surrender principle (Islam means surrendering to god's will) to crucial aspects of personal and social life, Muslim communities rarely encourage strong critical thinking skills within their members. This has had disastrous results for human rights and social welfare, as the current state of Muslim communities across the world demonstrates.
Muslims may succeed to force non-Muslims (or even enlightened Muslims) in not offending their religion by threatening them with assassinations, bombs and bullets, but increasingly they have a harder time to sell Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance. In fact sincere respect is rarely gained through initimidation.
My favorite suject to comment on. But first of all thank you for the timely article.
With all due respect to fellow Iranians, however, I think the issue of easy "offendability" is not just an Islamic thing. True muslims find it justifiable to kill people who have said something they didn't like, but Iranians too, although to a lesser degree, have shown that they are also easily offendable, and once offended they too exhibit odd, immature, uncivilized behavior.
There seems be a link between our low threshold of taking offence and a deep inferiority complex. Imagine, if muslims were powerful in the world, then they wouldn't care if somebody drew a picture of their prophet. Anyway, more later, and after others' comments.
Exactly. You have to give respect to get respect. Which does more to harm Islam, a few irreverent cartoons or the Cartoon Chaos that followed?
Great post. I agree completely. Nice to see us speak out like this. :)
i have a word on both sides of this conflict:
freedom of speech is a virtue that is highly valued in the west. but there are other virtues like consideration and courteousy that are equally valued. I won't go around in my town and dish out insults at people just to prove that i live in a free society. i personally don't like dick-headed people who try to prove a point through in-your-face approaches. but that's the end of it. i simply don't like them and try not to bump into them (i.e. stop reading their papers or watching their programs). that's that for the people who started re-priniting the cartoons (i don't have anything against the original cartoonists).
having said that, this incidence simply shows muslims' collective hypocracy. they unitedly get angry and all worked up because of some drawings that don't kill or behead anyone. but where is the angry mob to stand up to those who in the name of islam cut off heads and spread its videos on the internet... issue death threats against people whose crimes are drawing or writing ... hang people for minor crimes in the public ... or stone women to death ... burn embassies etc.
it seems muslims know how to bully the easiest targets -- journalists, authors, and filmamkers, granted, idoit journalists authors and filmmakers, but when it comes to terrorists and blood thristy dictators, they are all for it since we don't hear an angry reaction that their religion is hijacked. i was under the impression that muslims aren't united, but it seems they have a crazy way of pulling together over the stupidest issues.
Muslims may succeed to force non-Muslims (or even enlightened Muslims) in not offending their religion by threatening them with assassinations, bombs and bullets, but increasingly they have a harder time to sell Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance. In fact sincere respect is rarely gained through initimidation.
Beautifully said. I’ve quoted you and other Middle Easterners in my post Cartoon Chaos Continues
It is time to deal with these primitive radicals or it will be late tomorrow.
The muslim community should understand that the there is nothing sacred in today's world and every one is entitled to say whatever he/she likes.
Do the Muslims understand that the style of life in the western world is totally different than their owns in the mideast?
Nothing is sacred these days!
I also believe it is not europeans who have to apologize. It is time for the radical muslims and their backward governments in the middle east to apologize for years of oppression, suppression, stealing freedom of their own people, mass murdering prisoners and dissidents and lots of other shameful behaviors.
Will they ever apologize to the world for their dirty deeds?
I am absolutely angry at these pathetic muslims and I demand an apology from them for their wrongful actions and I'd like to remind them that the world we live in is a diverse one and we, who do not share your beliefs, have the right to live as we wish.
I have to remind you that our world is not, fortunately, ruled or regulated by your primitive ideas.
Winston,
Indeed. I agree 100%.
We need a smart revolution. People of Iran need to oppose this oppressive government by staying at home and shout the word "Freedom" from their houses every night. It should start on Thursday 9th of February at 8 pm. And again on Saturday 11th Feb 2006 and every two days from then on. Pass this on to all your friends and relatives within Iran. With the help of the West and all decent human beings around the world, and the effort of the Iranians themselves, We as the community of decent humans around the world should be able to get rid of these murderers ruling Iran by force. Remember, Thursday Night, 9th February 2006 at 8 pm
I agree with most of what you have mentioned, specially the fact that practicing muslims have a very low tolerance when it comes to islam but in this case I have to say that it was very irresponsible of the Danish newspaper to print this cartoon using freedom of speech as an excuse.
Freedom of speech means you can constructively criticise anything and anybody that you don't feel is right but it does not give you the right to insult or make fun of other people's belief, race or color or religion. We are living in a world that criticising foriegn policiy of some countries such as Israel can be considered "racist" or "anti semetic" but why don't people show the same tolerance for muslims instead of mucking them?
Oh YES.
The lovely:
"I agree blah blah blah BUT blah blah blah..."
in all its glory once again in front of our eyes.
Isn't it lovely? Isn't that omnipresent BUT unbearably attractiv?
Even irresistably sexy!?
yeah, baby! yeah!
Correction:
"i agree blah blah blah BUT (the opposite of what I just said) blah blah blah..."
The cartoon issue is one that reminds us that all pure intelectual theory founders on the relevance of context. It is the context that these images are read and received. This context is where Muslims living in the west are the prime subjects for arrest under emergency orders, with reduced rights for the person arrested. With the increased risk of being incarcerated and tortured.
The various examples of insults and alledged insults against Islam at Abhu Graib prison and elsewhere is also a relevant background for how things are received.
The boundaries of Freedom of speech is always being navigated however its moral authority founders when it seeks to defame, insult and degrade for its own sake, when no insight or additional knowledge is gained by such an action.
There is bias abound in the western media which refutes a relevant middle eastern perspective. The publication of these cartoons does nothing to change this view.
you might be right but their actions have made many people wonder why they are doing this.
My point was that the universal defintion of freedom seems to be a strange one to radical muslims and they still seek to build their caliphate and rule us.
I, for one, will go to war to defend my limited freedom though and I dont compromise with these primitive few.
I'd say give them war, a total war, if they want one. I know it is not a solution but it seems that s what they want so lets fight them as we can.
I dont want my world to be ruled by these people. My country was ruined by them, I dont let them destroy my world though
All right! Let me now follow up on what I said about our low threshold for getting offended (which is connected to our painful sense of inferiority) and how we struggle to protect our "honor" (a kind of imaginary thing, but nonetheless usually the only thing that can heal our overwhelming sense of humiliation and save us from an outright plunge to complete despair).
A brilliant example of it (for us, Iranians) is the current issue of nuclear technology. The Iranian regime has been able to take advantage of our stupid thirst for keeping our "honor" (our country's elected president finally compared the issue with Nationalization of Oil. What crap!) and successfully lead the ship to the eye of the storm. Why? Because we would be "offended" if the West deprived us of our "obvious right".
Andrew,
"The various examples of insults and alledged insults against Islam at Abhu Graib prison"
Give us a break here ok? How about you actually go and read about something before issuing such fatwas huh? You know nothing about Islam and the roots ofthis. Has nothing to do with Abu Ghraib or any alleged curtailings of muslim rights in the West.
An example of western bias is shown in the recent framing of the anti terror laws in the Uk Parliament. The wording specifically states that those arrested under these laws are allowed to go weekly to one stated mosque for worship. The fact that other places of worship such as churches, synagogues etc are ommitted shows the explicit target of this draconian legislation. Targeting solely the muslim community.
This implicit bias against muslim communities, and I speak as a non-muslim myself, shows that the pitch of tension of this clash of cultures is very high and I disagree for this and other reasons, that the threshold of reactions is low. To comment on the worthiness and morality at the targets you hit out at and the adopted strategies for response against cultural and religous bias is another question and perhaps needs a more calmer reflection in an atmostphere which is mutually tolerant.
This controversy is very enlightening. Publications in the middle east are riddled with blatantly anti-Semitic cartoons, tracks and articles. Christians fare no better. No one in the middle east takes umbrage at these. Moreover, no one in the west starts setting fire to mosques or threatening people with assination.
We hear time and time again that Islam is a religion of tolerance. Really? Should we not judge a religion by the actions of its adherents?
Maybe its time for the west to get off its politically correct fence. The Muslim world has absolutely no interest in being fair or tolerant. Why do we continue to extend them that courtesy.
Two quotes from the BBC that struck me:
"The cartoons are humiliating and racist. Muslims love the Prophet more than their families"
"If someone insults your family then that is something you take very seriously, but this is worse than that
- this is the Prophet, who is higher than all of us."
Now, I can understand Muslims feeling offended by the cartoons. But to put the reputation of a man who lived
14 centuries ago, no matter how holy he is, before your closest relatives is more than a little bit perverse, IMHO.
It is just another example, along with "honor" killings and suicide bombings which demonstrates the devaluation of human life
below the level of pride and other FEELINGS by self-proclaimed pious Muslims.
My question is: Is this hierarchy of values consistent with mainstream Islam or some kind of anomaly?
Andrew Baker,
These biased "anti terror laws in the Uk Parliament" that you talk about:
Where have you read them?
Did you read them yourself or read someones comment about them?
Mark,
BINGO!!!
There is no tolerance, there is not acceptance of others and there is no integration of ideas. It is their way or none. This is not just a culture clash. It is a clash of tolerance and freedom with intolerance and submission.
Andrew,
No one usually incites on slaughter in churches or synagouges.Mosques are the breeding ground for fanatics.
Are you a staff memebre of Robert Fisk or Galloway by any chance?!
Ron,
yes. This is one of the main pillars of mainstream Islam. I think in places like the European parts of Turkey it is less strict or focused on although it still exists. Muhammad is considered to be pure and faultless and no picture of him is even allowed.
In Shiism it is an absolute, not only Muhammad but his descendents as well.
Whether in practice people would really put it abovetheir loved ones I don't know but if they don't that is seen as a deficiency. A pure hearted muslim definitely acts this way.
Ron,
As far as I remember, there are paintings of the prophet and also Ali and Hossein (the first and the third Imam in Shiism) in iran, you can buy it in almost every religious bookstore. There are even a traditional re-enactments (called Ta'zieh) in which people play the role of different Imams of shia faith.
Yes there are some who believe depciting the prophet and Imams is forbidden. But there are numerous conterexamples especially in Shia faith. Even in some protests against these cartoons in iran I saw people (I saw them in news websites) who carry pictures of the prophet.
Another gem from BBC's quote-a-muslim:
"These cartoons are more upsetting than the Egyptian ferry disaster last weekend, when 1,000 people drowned."
It's like the lunatics have taken control of the asylum.
I think it's about time someone that paints good cartoons will paint a nice caricature of the protesters themselves and their violent acts at the scandinavian embassies!
Always blame the Jews..
pfffft.. Why punish us if you have conflict with danish newspaper...Where is the LOGIC?
Can't these Iranian caricaturists be more creative and paint something really funny about the Danish? Ahem.. Like Vikings and stuff?
(CNN) -- "An Iranian newspaper says it is going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust"
"The competition is in response to the publication, mainly in European newspapers, of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, something which is forbidden under Muslim belief."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/07/cartoon.protests/index.html
"In the past days Muslims across the world have objected to a Danish newspaper running a series of cartoons that were deemed offensive to Islam. Danish embassies have been threatened, Danish goods boycotted etc. This has been the case in the past two decades with anything that was deemed to be taking Islam lightly, or anything that was deemed offensive"
I hope the author is not questioning the right of the Muslims to protest when they feel they have been offended. To raise your voice, to protest when somebody offends you is very normal and not so difficult to understand. However if the author is criticizing the violence that has occurred in case of few of these demonstrations and Danish embassies have been damaged, that I can agree with.
"If the holocaust is a sensitive issue to the Jewish people, denying its existence by the Iranian president is met either with low-key encouragement or with implicit consent within the Muslim world"
I think author is playing loose with facts here. The term "holocaust denier" is a vague term and I hope author's use of this vague term is more of a simple ignorance than a purposeful use of a vague word. Holocaust revisionist is probably a proper term. Lets remember that the term "holocaust industry" was coined by Norman Finkelstien, a Jew and son of a holocaust survivors.
When Ahmadinejad made those statements, many of the Western leaders , newspapers, Israelis and their entire entourage of freindly papers around the world condemned Ahmadinejad, the very same people seem a bit baffled why Muslims are showing their dismay at those offending cartoons. This is interesting.
"murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats against countless intellectuals who intentionally or inadvertently managed to offend Islam are illustrations of the non-tolerance of Muslims with regards to their beliefs. "
Van Gogh (a fanatic himself) was murdered by a Muslim fanatic, other threats have been issued by Muslim individuals or organizations and to use the word MUSLIMS in this regard is again playing loose with facts and abuse of a term. Ghandi was murdered by a fanatic Hindu, Rabin was murdered by a fanatic Jew, Indira Ghandi was murdered by a fanatic Sikh, almost one third of Imam Khomeini's senior advisors were assassinated by fanatic Muslims Mujahedin Khalgh organization MKO( the new darlings of the US , EU and Israel), how accurate would it be to condemn the entire communities of Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims for the act of these fanatics?
"This non-tolerance in my view illustrates the existence of a deep insecurity towards internal and external challenges"
This conclusion is based on a false premise and therefore has no validity. It simply shows the burning desire of the author to announce a pre accepted , oft parroted statement in the form of a conclusion.
"There are three major consequences of this attitude. The first is without any room for challenging the sanctity of all aspects of Islam, there is little room for discussions and/or reformation. The second is that a lot of unhealthy dynamics that have evolved over the past 14 centuries through the interactions of Islam with various societies continue unquestioned and are considered part of a sacred tradition. What is sacred is beyond analysis"
As I said the author's argument that concluded Muslims are non tolerant was based on false statements and distortion ; how ever if the most sacred aspect of Islam so easily become the target of adventurers under the cover of freedom of expression , there is a possibility that some radical elements among Muslims will transfer the legitimate protest of Muslims into a non tolerant actions in which no aspect of Islam can be challenged or questioned. Burning those embassies , as ugly as it is , can never match the kind of damage that would be done if those radicals take control of Muslims communities.
There is a lot to say about this subject. I as a Muslim, do not agree with the passage of a law that would forbid non Muslims or Muslims from challenging and questioning different aspects of Islam. In fact this process of questioning goes on all the time in the theocratic Iran, all you have to do is take a look at the publications in which religious scholars and others discuss Islamic teachings with sometimes totally differing opinions. But use of profanity and porn literature to purposely hurt the feelings of Muslims and offend their faith does not contribute anything to this "questioning process" . But what should be done about it in Non Muslim countries, is a different subject. Even in the case of use of porn literature and profanity I still do not favor passing a law to make it illegal After all I have been criticizing the "thought crime" law in many EU countries that gives the government the power to prosecute and imprison any one who challenges any aspect of the government version of the holocaust. In fact the existence of this "thought crime " law in many of these EU countries is one of the main reasons that Muslims are reluctant to accept the European claims that these cartoons was published under the freedom of expression. How can you prosecute and imprison some one for politely challenging the government version of an event (without use of porn literature and profanity) and at the same time defend the publication of these cartoons using the freedom of expression argument? Shall we call it "hypocrisy on steroid"?
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]I am an American, Jewish by ancestry, living in the San Francisco Bay Area. I've never been to Iran; but I'd love to visit someday because I'm fascinated by your country's history and culture as well as the passion and curiosity of its people. But I'm very afraid for you and us; afraid that I won't be able to travel to your land anytime soon.
The Iranian President certainly isn't doing the people of Iran or the world any favors (quite an understatement. Commissioning art lampooning the holocaust is gratuitous and offense and reeks of base, reflexive anti-semitism. Ahmadinejad is a provocateur; but I suspect he is being used by the clerical power structure to bait the US and present a hard line in the nuclear negotiations. He doesn't seem long for power anyway.
From reading this biog. and other sources, one can see that conditions in Iran under the mullahs and particularly with the rise of Ahmadinejad are deplorable. The economy is stagnant, the attitude of the fundamentalists rulers and guardians to dissent and cultural express is dilatory at best, and the security situation has also deteriorated dramatically.
But I fear for your country as well as mine. I don't know how much you are familiar with the dramatic decline political and social conditions in the US, particularly in the past 5 years under the Bush regime.
The constitution and Bill of Rights here been effectively and essentially shredded. The Executive has run roughshod over the legislative; more or less ignoring or arrogating to themselves the interpretation of all bills emerging from Congress. Habeas corpus (criminal and civil rights) are under active challenge.
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]The US treasury is fast being depleted by the thieves we were illegitimately place in power and who are spending it on ruinous war overseas --- particularly Iraq and Afghanistan but all over the world. Muslims are jailed and deported without charges, the state is actively spying on thousands and thousands of citizens and harassing and monitoring opposition groups and those who dissent. All demonstrations against the President are automatically confined to free speech zones welll away from our Dear Leader.
Every federal Presidential election beginning with 2000's (Bush v. Gore) has been marred by massive vote fraud and theft via hacked electronic voting machines, voter suppression, invalidation of overseas votes (mostly Democratic), illegal purging of voters rolls, disinformation at polling places and a raft of other dirty stratagems. I'm talking about the 2000 election, 2002 Congressional elections, the 2004 Presidential rate which Kerry probably won by over 4 million votes (see markcrispinmiller.org). It's a foregone conclusion that 2006 will be stolen as well.
We have one-party rule in this country by leaders who are in thrall to a dangerous Christian fundamentalist agenda which is hostile and is determined to either eliminate or suspend freedom of expression, free press, science, reproductive choice, constitutional liberties, and cross cultural understanding and tolerance.
At the behest of their corporate sponsors, they have shredded the social safety net, wrecked environmental laws and enforcement, eviscerated almost all occupational, safety and health laws (including food inspection), made health care almost unaffordable (46 million people without health insurance in the US) and have facilitated a massive transfer of wealth to the top one percent.
The mainstream corporate-controlled US media (print and electronic) has been muffled and censored almost completely, especially when it comes to foreign affairs and the War on Iraq but also domestic crises and scandals like the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Voices of dissent have been virtually banished. The President has assumed royal, imperial pejoratives and defies public opinion, Congress and media accountability.
Meanwhile it fear mongers the public with imagined terrorist threats as it constantly conjures up bogeymen like Osama bin Laden, Zarqawi whose continued existence is not even certain and whose careers were originally nurtured by the US. It has covered up the real story behind 9/11 and cleverly uses the Islamic world as a foil, declaring a long war against "Islamofascism" that is intended to justify imperial adventures and occupations designed to appropriate and control the region's natural resources -- particularly oil and natural gas.
Meanwhile, a nation with 3 percent of the world's population continues to use at least 25 percent of its resources even as the national debt financed mostly by China, Japan and Korea soars to nearly $8 trillion and deficits running each year to $500 billion -- about what the US is now spending on the military and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And Dick Cheney says the American way of life is non-negotiable. He means it and that has grave implications for your future -- because he's counting on grabbing Mideast oil to ensure this will be the case.
You must know what they're doing to Iraq; they've turned that country into what a native of your country, Iranian born Christiane Ananpour calls a "black hole". Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead or dying, the country is being carved up and people are in constant fear of their lives from militias and death squads. Radioactive and toxic depleted uranium from US ordinance is killing and poisoning much of the population as well as US troops and causing widespread birth defects.
Intellectuals are being rounded up and detained or killed. Many are fleeing the country forever. The Bush regime is bent on dominating and recolonizing the Mideast including Syria and Iran. The US and Britain already hold sway in Jordan and have a strategic alliance and partnership with Israel.
As a wave of anti-Muslim sentiment sweeps Europe in the wake of the newspaper cartoon crisis, the US, NATO and Israel now have Iran in their sights. Troops, aircraft and ships have all been deployed to the region. Defense and diplomatic officials have been making the rounds in neighboring countries to plan for the blitzkrieg. Intense diplomatic pressure and bribes have been applied to the great and smaller powers, just as in the run-up to the Iraq War, which was waged based on trumped up evidence and pure fearmongering.
The cards have been reshuffled and now in addition to the UK -- France and Germany are now on board for the big push against your country. Russia and China have been squeezed and are now playing the role of last minute negotiators, striving to broker a settlement of the largely bogus nuclear issue in order to stave off a war.
If you browse the pertinent internet sites where uncensored, unfettered info is still available (globalresearch.ca; onlinejournal.com; uruknet.com; atimes.com; wsws.org) you'll get more detailed confirmation of what I'm saying.
Please have no illusions about the US and the neocon/neoliberal elites that rule most of Europe. They will plunder your country and turn it into an unholy hell hole. They don't care a whit about the people of the US here and they certainly have no concern for the people of Iran although they constantly claim they do. They specialize in secrecy and deceit and their only allegiance is the richest corporations, unchecked rule, impunity and enrichment for themselves and the most affluent Americans worth $10 million or more.
They are right now contemplating using tactical nukes in air strikes against hardened nuclear research and other underground installations scattered around Iran. They also have their eyes (as Saddam did) on seizing Khuzestan and neighboring provinces to grab Iranian oil resources and neutralize the Iranian regime. But unlike Saddam they will undoubtedly succeed if it comes to actual war, which is looking more and more likely. The only way it won't happen is if the mullahs completely capitulate and concede to handing over power to a pro-neo-liberal government that will do their bidding and hand over the keys to the country.
Once they get a hold of Khuzestan they will never let it go and Western oil companies will gain lucrative, decades-long concessions just as they have in Iraq.
As bad as you have it now, it will be immeasurably worse if you let this corrupt, corporate cabal led by the US take over your country. If they can't do it by coercion and unremitting diplomatic pressure, psychological pressure and brinkmanship they will do it by force at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead and a region contaminated by nuclear fallout and in the aftermath riven by anarchy and sectarian violence once the population and former government responds with asymmetric, guerilla tactics against the occupiers.
What they did to Iraq, they plan to do to you. They have plotted out a decades long "Long War" -- a clash of civilizations and they've designated the Iranian people as their chief victims. Iran is the grand prize, the linchpin of the region. They want your oil and gas, control of the Straits of Hormuz, forward bases in the north near Georgia.
Please disabuse yourself of the goodness of the US and Europe. This is not the same country it was six years ago, nor are most European countries which have been taken over with US connivance by a cabal of greedy, corrupt rulers. The US is not democratic; it's no longer a system to admire or emulate. There are no longer free and fair elections -- the free press except for the blogosphere is a myth and the people here are scared, tired and dispirited. We fear for our jobs, our future and most of us who are in the know despise our government which has betrayed our heritage and constitution on false pretenses. They are liars and cheats who mouth pious declamations about freedom and democracy while stabbing us in the back.
Ask Iranians from older generations. Do not count on the Russians to save you in negotiations -- they're just looking for a share of the spoils as are the Chinese.
I hope the fate that threatens to befall you does not come to pass. The US says it supports democracy in Iran and its transformation to a "free market" economy. You must investigate what this free-market economy has done to us and how free and democratic we really are and you'll see what's in store for you as citizens are abandoned by the thousands in one of the nation's most historic city, New Orleans, here in a country that is supposedly wealthy beyond compare.
The only freedom and democracy that the Bush regime upholds is the freedom to manipulate peoples, elections and governments around the world to their own economic and geopolitical advantage. This is a country that without much remorse caused the deaths of 3 million Koreans from aerial bombardment and chemical and biological warfare, as well as 2 million Vietnamese to save those countries from "communism". An estimated half million were liquidated in Indonesia in the mid-1960's with US connivance, hundreds of thousands of dead and many more displaced in the counterinsurgency wars in Central America in the 1980's under our great President Ronald Reagan.
We are the only nation which has yet annihilated population centers with atomic bombs, the use of which was criminal and gratuitous -- Japan was on its knees and defeated. We did it as a pointed threat and lesson of power to the Soviet Union and we won't hesitate to use these weapons again on your cities.
Will they shed many tears when millions are wiped out in Iran after they gain control of your country? Did we hesitate to overthrow your democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq in 1953 and replace him with our proxy, Shah Reza Pahlevi whose SAVAK ruled in a reign of terror, torture, embezzlement and self aggrandizement for over two decades?
Did we not encourage, arm, aid and assist Saddam to invade your country in 1980, following the hostage crisis in a conflict that scarred your nation and resulted in terrible bloodshed that cost the lives of about 1 million of your soldiers and civilians, many of whom are still incapacitated by the chemical weapons that we and Europe supplied Saddam?
Study your history. Your country and people are viewed as assets and inanimate objects to be manipulated and plundered by our military industrial complex. We will make you slaves and you'll look back with nostalgia on the days that you were ruled by the theocracy. We will destroy your cities, plunder your art treasures and archaeological sites just as we did in Iraq. Yet it will be called bringing the gift of freedom and democracy to long-oppressed people.
Do yourselves a favor, inaugurate true, democratic reforms. Put pressure on your government to release political prisoners. United around national sovereignty and economic opportunity. This is your best defense against Western designs and depredations which threaten to befall your nation very, very soon.
Don't fall into the trap. Don't buy US propaganda and disinformation. It is a deadly load of claptrap from rulers who only know how to tell lies to our own people and the people of the world.
I wish you and ourselves good luck, God's grace and peace on earth. We're going to have to do a lot of praying over the next few months!
Robert Cohen,
IMHO, you have some good points about the U.S health care system but thats where your good points end.
You're accusing the U.S, Europe, Russia and even China with countless charges.
Alot of what you said are your own opinions and for the reality you describe, you didn't bother presenting any solid sources for facts whatsoever.
Your neverending unfounded accusations including your illegal and unfair advertisement of multiple copies of your comment in more than one article in this website AND THE FACT THAT THEY DON'T form ANY chain with the articles -all these are more than enough clear patterns of brainwash attempt either by someone with clear interests of drastically influencing public opinion or by someone misguided by the brainwash he recived himself.
At this point I must point out that I seriously doubt your proclaimed identity or to be more exact, your loyalty to your proclaimed identity since you defend (oppose overthrowing) a regime that has already openly wished for Israel to be wiped off the map, openly finance and give shelter to terror organizations that act as its proxies, and even strive for nuclear weapon capabilities (and not for self defence).
I wonder if a significant percentage of the protesters would have engaged in such acts if they knew about the pure economic damage they were causing to themselves. (I think it's huge, if anybody needs to know why I can explain). I think what will bring some sense to the muslem world eventually is good mass-education of economics not ethics. I lived in Iran for 25 years and my understanding of muslem zealots in Iran is this: they may normally be ready to kill you if you insult their prophet, but give them a dollar and they'll curse the prophet in no time.
Emerson,
Your understandfing of Muslim zealots in iran is inadequate. We the seculars of Iran are ready to give them each one million dollars to transfer to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, where they would be among likeminded people, but they would still not go :) Zeal for religion is their last shred of identity. They won't sell it for anything. There are some things money can't buy..for everything else there is...
I think unfortunately most Iranians (and not only Iranians, religious or not) are willing to risk their lives and kill someone for 10^6 dollars or roughly 10^9 tomans. I'm curious to know other Iranian's understanding of the situation in Iran.
Emerson,
Did you really "think" and came up with this studpid statement: "most iranians ... are willing ... to kill someone fir 10^6 dollars"?
Hello,
i did not read all the comments, but will respond to your original article.
Im living in the Netherlands and am feeling
also confused about all the fuss over the cartoons
Even here in the Netherlands the youngsters seem to be 'infected' , really thats how i see it, infected by this outrage.
You all ready state in your article that there is al lot of hypocrisi in the world today.
I really some times wonder what our leaders are up to, because it seems to me that really the fast majority off people all over the world just simply want to live in peace and harmony with each other.
Hereby, i have streched out my hand.....
lets all join in blogs like this,
and change the world leading opinions.
Alice
( ps. Here we have a newspaper called ;
De Volkskrant, where bloggers have started a English blog to 'Brigde the Gap' check it out if you like http://www.volkskrantblog.nl/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=3497 )
People kill more easily than you think. Soldiers have killed all through history for petty salaries. I have often seen taxi drivers in Tehran getting into fights over who gets a passenger that eventually gives them 10 cents. Maybe not most, but a significant percentage of people will kill for 10^9 tomans.
Emerson,
I think the percentage of people who would kill for the same amount of money is relatively the same all the world over. U.S. soldiers kill many for $40,000 a year, Israeli soldiers kill for around 100,000 Shekels a year, Iranian Security Forces for probably 12,000,000 toomans per year. The difference is mainly in the cost of living index.
Your comments seem irrelevant. Economics is a mjor motivation for many things in society, but religous zeal is unfortunately soemthing that has substantial non-economic components. Look at the settlers in the West Bank whose presence is creating risks for themselves and IDF solders and stopping billions of dollars of investments from going to Israel. All over the world, ideologies and beliefs supersede mutual economic interests. It is unfortunate, but cannot be overlooked.
Bandeh,
Your assumption of the Israeli soldiers paycheck is wrong....
Those that serve at the home front get 356 shekels a month. ($75)
Those from the combat units get about twice as much.
Also, I strongly oppose your presentation of argument in this manner:
"U.S. soldiers kill many for.."
"Israeli soldiers kill for.."
You're demonizing people when you say they are killing for money. What more is that it's a total fallacy.
Israeli soldiers don't kill for money. They serve in the army because it's crucial for the survival of their nation. And they certainly aren't killing anyone for monetary bonuses.
Your demonizing sentence was also blunt against the American soldiers.
They risk their lives more than the money they get worth, and certainly don't get money to launch a hunting journey.
I'm not even sure you got their salary correct either.
I bet there's some soldiers someplace who would kill Bandeh and Emerson for free.
I wonder what the salary of a suicide bomber is. I wish it was really true that soldiers (and terrorists) killed for money. I'm pretty sure that the US could pay Iranian troops 100 times what the IRI pays them, without even denting the budget. Buh-bye, Islamic Republic of Iran. And how's about those insurgents in Iraq? I know they can't be taking much to the bank.
Too bad the world doesn't actually work that way, isn't it?
Ben,
I didn't say the motivation was merely money in either case (although for U.S. soldiers who are mostly from lower economic strata the unemployment in inner cities and lack of opportunities does lead them to the army). I was saying they get paid to kill (guns are not meant to build bridges or do surgery, they are given to people to kill). For Israeli soliders, since they are drafted any way, the money may not be as much an issue, I give you that.\
But you are actually supporting my point, which is that economic compensation is not a way to deter people from not killing, or having them kill in many cases. So Toda.
Bandeh, you last post was even more offensive and ignorant than the previous one. I spent 6 years as an infantryman in the US Marines and I'm from a white anglo-saxon upper middle class family. I wasn't even an officer, I enlisted after high school. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet I've got a double digit lead on you in IQ scores.
I'm probably taller and stronger than you, and better looking, too. What happened to make you hate military people so much? Did your wife run off with a soldier?
Bandeh,
You said: ["guns are not meant to build bridges or do surgery, they are given to people to kill"].
-I must say I disagree with you once again. Especially since a weapon isn't for killing only although this is what it's designed for.
Did you ever consider deterrence as a factor? How about self defence? Guards hold weapons. Do they kill every day? Soldiers usually own weapons. This doesn't mean they're supposed to kill with it. this means that they are soldiers. Have you ever seen a soldier without a weapon? Why are you even questioning the guns issue? Do you want them to hold flowers? Cakes? Water balloons?
Does your own opinion over this conflict blind you to such degree that prohibits you from considering more than one perspective?
Craig,
Salary for suicide bomber is supposed to be 72 virgins in heavens.. Religion which promises sexual rewards has no depth in my view.. Religion is supposed to be spiritual and above worldly pleasures. This isn't a joke. They really believe in the 72 virgins fairy tale after the decent brainwash they get from childhood from their religious clerics (which are also brainwashed from childhood =neverending magic circle).
They wrap their genitals with layers of cloth in a futile attemt to keep them in one piece after the blast. This is how fleshy this religion is. I can see nothing truly spiritual in it.
The monetary salary goes to their families.
Families of suicide bombers get money. Alot of money.
First of all any sum of money which numbers in thousands is ALOT of money in the Palestinian authority since the average income per month is $50.
Now you can start counting many governing institutions and organizations that send money to the suiciders families:
Rich activists from Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and from other arabic oil wealthy countries, the governments of Iran, Syria and untill Saddam Hussein was in control: The Iraqi ragime..
The Palestinian authority itself also compensates their families with money.
Each of the involved factors I mentioned and many others contribute an amount that varies between the $4,000 and the $30,000. And when one family gets their bonus from multiple sources at once, they become so rich even in terms of the western world, that you can imagine how they are able to live in their own area, where the average annual income doesn't go above the $600.
1) Imagine family A neighboring family B suddenly realizes that while they (B) are living in poverty, A became rich overnight.
2) Consider this with the fact that the average Palestinian family has 6 children and many families have more than 10 and the mothers themselves offer their children for suicide missions.
3) Also consider the the content of the religious preachings they hear every day.
All of these 3 above lower the respect that they feel in their society to human life.
Number 1:
Example for cause: #843 - Saudi Iqra TV Raises Money for Palestinian Intifada http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=843wmv&ak=null
Example for effect: http://www.expressen.se/content/1/c6/04/05/80/53dc076e.jpg
Number 2:
The Mother of a Palestinian "Shahid": I'm Sad but I Hope There Will Be Many More http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=297
and
Mother of Palestinian Suicide Bomber Interviewed on PA TV http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=271
Number 3:
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]Example for cause: #669 - Palestinian Friday Sermon by Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris: Muslims Will Rule America and Britain, Jews Are a Virus Resembling AIDS http://memritv.org/View.asp?P1=669
Example for effect: Already well known that Palestinians produce suicide bombers, but look at the effect caused by preaching from young age in a neighboring country. Here is an example from the Egyption TV, a country which supposedly signed peace with Israel..Cold peace indeed.. #924 - 3½-Year-old Egyptian Basmallah: Jews Are Apes and Pigs http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=924wmv&ak=null
Craig,
Your anecdotal evidence does not constitute statistics. If you take the entire military you will see that the majority comes from lower income classes. This is a known fact, and one of the reasons the army is offering $40,000 bonuses to sign up. The fact that you came from a upper-middle class family background shows that you had other motives rather than compensation, but doesn't reflect on the statistics as a whole.
As to your other points, well what can I say :) The answer is self-evident in the level of your discourse.
Ben,
You went on a tangent. That topic may be interesting in itself, but doesn't pertain to my original point to Emerson, which is that economics while a factor is not the determining factor in ideological decision-making. Your general points seem to support that, so I don't see why you try so hard to disagree :)
Bandeh, cite the statistics. The US Marine Corps is an exact cross section of America. Same demographics as society as a whole. Same economic backgrounds. Same everything. You've been reading too much Michael Moore, and spent too much time listening to Charlie Wrangle. Invalid and blatantly offensive, and demeaning, stereotype.
I say again, cite the statistics.
Bandeh, cite the statistics. The US Marine Corps is an exact cross section of America. Same demographics as society as a whole. Same economic backgrounds. Same everything. You've been reading too much Michael Moore, and spent too much time listening to Charlie Wrangle. Invalid and blatantly offensive, and demeaning, stereotype.
I say again, cite the statistics.
Bandeh,
I wasn't trying to interfere with your general points to Emerson either way.
I specifically said I didn't agree with the way you presented your opinion. First with the demonizing sentence and second with the purpose of a gun.
The cartoon feakout proved that there are more then a few willing to push any button they see at a moments notice over such a stupid little thing. I'd bet Iran does the Hail Mary pass to some sick & twisted buch of human waste that kills for God and they will do the deed from the center of the country. I'm sorry but the jumping up and down shooting off rounds makes it hard to say that those folks are playing with a full deck.
How woud the world react if Bush said that he flat out wants to wipe Iran off the face of earth?
Iran has a bunch of total nut jobs running the show and you would have to be an idiot to say any different. The facts are that the US and west are getting tired of the constant nonsense that come from these religous freaks (and they are freaks) so the hammer is coming down, no more Mr. Nice guy, No more black hawk down type sheet. If they start the war the US/west will finish it once and for all.
Those freaks run around preaching GOD IS GREAT!! when they kill and mame innocents! WTF! how can you preach the word of a god when you kill others no matter who they are??!???!! What God is ok with that type of Love and devotion? Last I checked a God should be nice and fair to all his lambs not go around blowing them up or cutting off their heads.
Some paper in Denmark prints 11 campy cartoons of the prophet and then we see another 3 really bad ones thrown in from the same source that was protesting them in the first place?
Why is that retard not stoned to death or beheaded like the other artists are threatened to be?
Why the heck is the US flag being burned with the Danish flag? Oh it's the West as a whole they are mad at...Get freaking over it, put the guns down and get to work!
Where did they find all those Danish flags at a moments notice in the first place??
I'm pretty sure the facts on who is doing all the sick & twisted killing points towards the "GOD IS GREAT" crowd, it aint the US or the Jooooos. More pallys are killed in pally-stein from internal skermishes then are killed by the IDF. More jooo's are killed by those sicko bastards with bombs strapped around their waist.
When I see a sea of folks with bandannas that say "I am willing to kill for GOD" I get a little weary. They have guns and truly want to kill those that oppose their stupid ways. What part do you not get?
The cartoon feakout proved that there are more then a few willing to push any button they see at a moments notice over such a stupid little thing. I'd bet Iran does the Hail Mary pass to some sick & twisted buch of human waste that kills for God and they will do the deed from the center of the country. I'm sorry but the jumping up and down shooting off rounds makes it hard to say that those folks are playing with a full deck.
How woud the world react if Bush said that he flat out wants to wipe Iran off the face of earth?
Iran has a bunch of total nut jobs running the show and you would have to be an idiot to say any different. The facts are that the US and west are getting tired of the constant nonsense that come from these religous freaks (and they are freaks) so the hammer is coming down, no more Mr. Nice guy, No more black hawk down type sheet. If they start the war the US/west will finish it once and for all.
Those freaks run around preaching GOD IS GREAT!! when they kill and mame innocents! WTF! how can you preach the word of a god when you kill others no matter who they are??!???!! What God is ok with that type of Love and devotion? Last I checked a God should be nice and fair to all his lambs not go around blowing them up or cutting off their heads.
Some paper in Denmark prints 11 campy cartoons of the prophet and then we see another 3 really bad ones thrown in from the same source that was protesting them in the first place?
Why is that retard not stoned to death or beheaded like the other artists are threatened to be?
Why the heck is the US flag being burned with the Danish flag? Oh it's the West as a whole they are mad at...Get freaking over it, put the guns down and get to work!
Where did they find all those Danish flags at a moments notice in the first place??
I'm pretty sure the facts on who is doing all the sick & twisted killing points towards the "GOD IS GREAT" crowd, it aint the US or the Jooooos. More pallys are killed in pally-stein from internal skermishes then are killed by the IDF. More jooo's are killed by those sicko bastards with bombs strapped around their waist.
When I see a sea of folks with bandannas that say "I am willing to kill for GOD" I get a little weary. They have guns and truly want to kill those that oppose their stupid ways. What part do you not get?
ScottVee,
Indeed! I can't agree with you more.
Also relevant:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Images/DoubleStandard.jpg
An Iranian Student
I hear ya!
Winston,
I hope you find something worthwhile to consider among what i say too.
Gives ERRORS Ben :-l
You guys oppose oppression, injustice, chaos and unhumanly conducts.
At its opposite, you encourage any move towards a smart revolution! I wonder, Is it not adding to the sores? Do you possibly ever consider those many families losing their youths for nothing?
Most of you saying these are far, you know, away from here. You are most definitely in your ideal places and long this perfectness for Iran- your motherland, as well.
But take into account that only you and your motivated friends do not count. For any change every single person in society is to react and believe. Just consider what proportion of the society salute Ahmadinejad in their towns,...or the funny cartoon case.
Iran will never see to itself any revolution of the kind you think or plan of, I bet. I am talking so, because I have seen different people in various jobs and social status, and different cities I`ve traveled. They need peace, even in the hands of a traitor.
Monika,
The link is fine.
Do you live in Iran?
Yes. I do, and the link does not open the second time I tried it.
Monika,
It's a possiblity that your ISP is blocking this website. Of course there could be another explanation...
Try using anonymous proxies to find out.
سللیلللللللل
ننت
نتن
ددددددددددددددددذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذذئئئئئئئئئئووووووووووودد
and as most of you know the symbol on the danish flag is a cross, another holy relic
The day a Muslim family treats a daughter equally to her brother and favors neither is when this problem comes to an end.
The day when Muslim society does not treat a woman differently from a man is when this problem comes to an end.
The day when Muslim society transcends the Tribe, and each person listens to his or her own conscience carefully is when this problem comes to an end.
As long as a Muslim listens to his imam who listens to his mullah who listens to an ayatolah, this problem remains.
In America, the KKK acted like this.
In America, the criminals act like this.
Mob violence is a criminal act.