Free Thoughts on Iran
Front Page | About FToI | Authors | Archives | Comment Policy | Disclaimer
e-mail

bra.gif Ad Inferna per Aspera: Part II | Main | By the Way, My favourite director is Luis Bunuel! ket.gif

February 08, 2004

They deserve it!
Yaser Kerachian  [info|posts]

people.jpg A few weeks ago, Mahmoud Shamsolvaezin, a reformist journalist, was in Toronto and gave a speech about parliamentary election in Iran. There was one sentence in his talk which I liked the most. He said: "Iranians are very patient to endure the long-term dictatorship however they are very impatient whenever there is any hope." In my opinion, what has happened during the last month in Iran is the best proof for this claim.

More than one hundred MPs started a sit-in in protest to the mass disqualification of the candidates by the Guardian Council a month ago. The sit-in lasted for 26 days and ended differently than what many people thought at the beginning. The MPs did not compromise on their demands with the conservatives. They finally resigned and are still standing on their promises. Sadly, people are not supporting them.

People may have a few reasons for their reluctance. They think that reformists should have stood against the conservatives much earlier, when Ayatollah Khamenei rejected the press bill. In people's view, the reformists' action is very late as well as dishonest. The MPs didn't do anything till their own fate fell into danger. On the other hand, people are disappointed by observing no real changes after the reformists came into the power. They now prefer to take care of their everyday life believing that engaging in the politics of their own country has turned out to be useless.

Whatever the reasons for people's reluctance are and whoever's fault is, this will only help the conservatives to come into the power and rule the country by their backward agenda. This is a sad fact that people simply ignore paying attention to it. Their action (inaction!) is based on several wrong assumptions which have lead to this miserable situation.

I have real problem understanding the concept of "disappointment" used by many people. One may become disappointed of a certain way, but then has to come up with a new thing. Even if people think that the reform movement can not solve their problems, sitting in their homes would not be the alternative solution. Or if they do, it is what they have chosen consciously and should accept its consequences. This disappointment is the same as the impatience mentioned by Shamolvaezin in his talk. Iranians start something and then get disappointed after few years. Then they live under dictatorship for hundred years. They do something again for few years and this loop continues forever. No wonder why we are standing where we are now.

Another wrong assumption which most of the people have is that they think of the current power struggle as a game which they are only the fans while the reformists and conservative are the two teams playing it. As Alavitabar, a reformist, once said, in this game conservatives are playing like a chimpanzee. There is no doubt that when people who have to also play, go aside and watch the game and only once in a while shout, the reformists will lose that game. People should understand the result of this game is firstly linked to their own fate and not only the reformists. I have quite often heard from people that "The reformists haven't done anything. Why should I vote for them?" They say it as if they are doing a favor for the reformists by voting! They are doing a favor for themselves.

It is important to note that the conservatives make their decision based on the pressure they feel by the public opinion. As an example, they used to kill the authors and writers in the past while they send them to jail now. Though they would prefer to kill them even now, they don't simply because of the public opinion. This is why people can play a major role in getting their rights. Sadly, people haven't done much apart from casting a ballot every one or two years, what they even hesitated in the last city council elections. In the last few years, the only active social force was the university students which currently suffer badly from losing their unity.

The fate of the sit-in could have been (and still be) very positive. We tend to neglect the importance of what happened in the last month. In the history of our country, you can rarely see such a resistance against the dictatorship of the power. I think people are to lose another opportunity and will regret for their reluctance later. These two weeks will pass very quickly and quietly. Regardless of the turnout, the conservatives will sweep the parliamentary seats and a year later the presidential one. People patiently endure the dictators again for the coming years. The dictators who are not legitimate by any standard as people who tend to boycott any election wish. I am just wondering how this illegitimacy will make a difference in my life.

It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people deserve those who govern them.

Comments
Wessie at February 8, 2004 12:42 PM [permalink]:

"It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people are deserved for those who govern them."

Absolutely true, Yaser! All people get they government they deserve. And still the Iranians nor any Middle Easterners don't see the root of their problem—Islam.

Islam is what makes people sheep. But, it is apostasy to admit that—thus taboo. "Allah wills it" and they just continue to be subjugated. That is why many don't believe there will ever be democracy in Islamic lands.

If you will note, the people of the West, especially the U.S., are already "bored" with the problems of Islamic lands. Iraq is a never ending black hole that drains blood and treasure from the U.S.. Afghanistan will again revert to tribal warfare no matter what we do. Saudi Arabia is as backward as ever. Iran won't have fair elections—again. All the other ME states are a mess and seem to like it that way, despite complaining.

We in the West are damned TIRED of throwing good money after bad to help Muslims and see it misused to fund terror instead of promote freedom and the rule of law. Besides, we have our own problems that need to be solved. We want our people out of Iraq and don't want much to do with any ME state. The EU does not want to contribute their share because they know it is futile. But, they don't have the guts to admit it.

In the end, you will all be left to your own devices—again. Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem! We see no progress in islamic lands—ever. Thus, no one will help you unless you help yourselves. We will only fight against Islamic terror—and that we shall do with a vengeance!

God helps those who help themselves.

What Went Wrong? http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm

. . . If the peoples of the Middle East continue on their present path, the suicide bomber may become a metaphor for the whole region, and there will be no escape from a downward spiral of hate and spite, rage and self-pity, poverty and oppression, culminating sooner or later in yet another alien domination—perhaps from a new Europe reverting to old ways, perhaps from a resurgent Russia, perhaps from some expanding superpower in the East. But if they can abandon grievance and victimhood, settle their differences, and join their talents, energies, and resources in a common creative endeavor, they can once again make the Middle East, in modern times as it was in antiquity and in the Middle Ages, a major center of civilization. For the time being, the choice is theirs. . . "

I only agree to a point with Lewis' statement.

"Islamic democracy" is an oxymoron. There can NEVER be a modern democracy under the yoke of Islam because Islam is a 7th century religion that cannot be modified as other religions have been. It worked "fine" up until the middle ages. But, when the reformation and age of enlightenment came to the West, Islam could not keep up—because it is "immutable."

Therefore, if Muslims want a renaissance, they have to re-think Islam and stop blaming other things for their state of affairs.

Wessie

Borghan N. Narajabad at February 8, 2004 02:19 PM [permalink]:

Dear Wessie

As Imam Ali says :"people deserve those who govern them."

Americans deserve Bush, while Iranians are looking for somebody even more intellectual than Khatami.

I'm not sure you know Khatami or not, but I hope at least you know your own leader ;-)

King Kong at February 8, 2004 02:27 PM [permalink]:

Islam is now about 1400 years old. What did Christianity look like on its 1400th birthday? And how long did it take Christianity to respect all those liberal values once that Reformation started? Didn't they keep killing each other in the name of their God for another 150 years?

I think Islamic countries can move much faster, since they have the Western democracies to look to as examples. But these things still take time.

wessie at February 8, 2004 04:06 PM [permalink]:

Actually, Borghan we don't deserve Bush, since he was not elected, but rather appointed by the Supreme Court. Now, if we truly elect him this time—then, we deserve him. ;-) But, even IF that happens, we only get him for 4 more years—regardless.

The specious argument that Islam is "only" 1400 years old does not hold water, King Kong. First, Islam claims to have been very "progressive" while Europe was in the dark ages. So, WHAT HAPPENED? We have all been on the same planet at the same time. Why did Islam stop in the Middle Ages and even revert to the 7th century in so many places? I'll tell you why. Because Islam is not compatible with free thought, democracy or civil society that thinks for itself. Muslims must follow the prescribed "order" of Islam—or they are not Muslims.

You all continue to evade the issue. That is that Islam is NOT compatible with democracy. Whether you have our example or not won't make a bit of difference.

Center for the Study of Islam & Democracy:

http://www.islam-democracy.org/

Wessie

WhoMan at February 8, 2004 04:16 PM [permalink]:

Lon time ago someone left this comment in my blog:

"if we were having this debate [whether Islam is compatible with democracy] in the 10th century we would be asking the opposite question: why is Islam compatible with civilization and Christianity is not?"

Vahid at February 8, 2004 04:26 PM [permalink]:

With your argument Wessie, we also did not elect our supreme leader. He was elected by the "Khobregan" (Some old guys that overlook (in theory) leader's actions.

Mehdi Y. at February 8, 2004 04:28 PM [permalink]:

Yaser, thanks for your well written article. I agree with you that people are not gonna benefit from defeat of the reformist, even if the reformist deserve their defeat because of their inaction earlier.

Many of the social freedoms that were gained during past six years will be reversed. Those who argue that nobody can not reverse the progress made have forgot what happened after the 1979 revolution when 50 years of progress was reversed over 3 years.

If hardliners take over the parliment and the executive branch, things will go much worse. Some people can feel indifferent now and enjoy that the lazy reformists are being punished for their incompetency, but people will learn about their mistakes when every empty land in Tehran turns to a Mosque and city squares become cemeteries (what hardline city council was trying to do).

pretty unpredictable days are ahead of Iranians.


Vahid at February 8, 2004 04:41 PM [permalink]:

Dear Yaser,
I have the same concern, and I am worried about the non-caring attitude of the people these days. But I am not sure, what kind of support, do you expect from people. Do you want them to come to streets and danger their lives. For what, for reformists? They do not trust them anymore. And they might be right. I think people are not that stupid, they simply do not see reformists as the solution. The problem is afterall they need to accept the "Hokme Hokoomati" form Khameneyi. I am really frustrated with what is the solution. But this is probably the frustration that people have too. And their dissappointment is because they do not have any hope for an alternative. I still think people should not be careless, and I have a feeling that people are not. But they just find this game not of any importance to them.
I sometimes doubt our intuitions, because some of us, we came out of Iran during the hot days of reformists. And we still might be living in that atmosphere, but people in Iran have moved on with their lives. It is very sad ...

JFTDMaster at February 8, 2004 04:50 PM [permalink]:

"Islam is what makes people sheep."
- When submission means submission to corrupt criminal leaders, yes.. when submission means submission to what YOU think is just, no.. are there not also traditions of every muslim being responsible personally before god for what he/she does?

Christianity was meant to be separate from the state, once upon a time.. "leave what is ceasars' to ceasar".. and yet it was used by the Romans as a tool of control, and later by the Christendom.. and now it is separate from the state again.

On the other hand, during the great caliphates, like the ones in spain in 12th century, there was tolerance, modernity, and all that, more than they have now.

As you can see, things can change..

Christianity was capable of reform, and I think so is Islam. After all, we are all human.

"Iraq is a never ending black hole that drains blood and treasure from the U.S.. Afghanistan will again revert to tribal warfare no matter what we do. "
- I predict Iraq and Afghanistan will be relatively successful, sovereign Muslim democracies within 2-3 years. Media deludes you into thinking things are all going badly there, by reporting only on the bad..

"We want our people out of Iraq and don't want much to do with any ME state."
- Perhaps you don't have the patience and the responsiblity to see things through in Iraq, at least Republicans do.

"You all continue to evade the issue. That is that Islam is NOT compatible with democracy."
- then why does al-sistani support democracy?

its impossible to have real democracy with sharia law like that of wahabists, or aytollahs

but it is possible to have a democratic state with modern universal laws, with a large muslim majority, with islam as the cultural/traditional heritage.

Faezeh at February 8, 2004 05:10 PM [permalink]:

I am so tired of the attitude that holds Islam responsible for everything that has ever happened in muslim countries and takes to account no other possible cause.

It reminds me of the attitude of Iranian leftists 50 years ago who found Islam the cause of all disasters of Iranians and the Worker Revolution the only path to salvation and prosperity.

Jeez, are really Muslims the only people under dictatorship?
Can't you see Russians went under dictatorship for more than 50 years? Their situation is still hopeless: Only one-voiced media of government, no independent TV channel or newspaper. Inspired elections, corrupt judicial and economic system...Their situation seems much more hopeless than Iran. Do you think they are muslims or even religious, I doubt so.

Look at sub-Saharan Africa. People are living in extreme poverty with frightening rate of HIV pollution under stupid dictators(just look at what Mugabe does) with millions of civil war casualties. The famous brutal civil war of Liberia has nothing less than hell. Let me tell you they are not muslim countries.

Argentina had the same GDP per capita as USA at the beginning of 20th century. Now compare it with USA. Were they muslims and fall out of development path because of their religion? Other South American countries have similar stories with periods of horrible rule of dictators and civil wars. I doubt they are muslims either.

Come on, even in the US there are less developed areas and people. Are the %80 of US population who only hold %20 of US capital muslim?

Let’s stop trying to justify everything with Islam. Believe me, there are really smart social scientists who struggle to figure out the answer of these questions. There are many factors that determine how some economies (or even people within a country) grow and others fall in development traps and don’t grow as fast. How capital accumulates somewhere due to the kind of resources and their distribution and regulations and property rights and does not do somewhere else.



Wessie at February 8, 2004 07:55 PM [permalink]:
"if we were having this debate [whether Islam is compatible with democracy] in the 10th century we would be asking the opposite question: why is Islam compatible with civilization and Christianity is not?" Now, now, now, WhoMan, the whole rest of the world, including Christianity was not exactly living in caves during that time. You must remember that Islam CONQUERED civilizations and absorbed them. It did NOT invent them. Just as Iran's civilization was conquered by the Arabs, so were others. -- "With your argument Wessie, we also did not elect our supreme leader. He was elected by the "Khobregan" (Some old guys that overlook (in theory) leader's actions." Right, Vahid, but you can't get rid of your "leaders"—we can. Our laws assure that. Islam's laws assure that Muslims will always be ruled by despots. "And their dissappointment is because they do not have any hope for an alternative. " That is because they are not thinking of any alternatives. Middle Easterners expect others to do the thinking for them. Islam doesn't give anyone a chance to think—what with prayer 5 times a day. "On the other hand, during the great caliphates, like the ones in spain in 12th century, there was tolerance, modernity, and all that, more than they have now." You really don't know your history, JFTDMaster. The ONLY reason Islam was more or less (but it was less) tolerant was because it had to be. It could not rule over such a HUGE empire and not be. The dhimmis is what kept the Islamic state perking. Jizya (poll tax) is what kept the Islamic coffers full. Once the dhimmis either converted or died off Islam had little left. Islam is not and cannot be innovative. Aside from the principal of zero, there is little that has been invented or developed by Muslims. Certainly NOTHING in the last 500 years. "I predict Iraq and Afghanistan will be relatively successful, sovereign Muslim democracies within 2-3 years." I would like to eat my hat on this. But, I doubt it. "Perhaps you don't have the patience and the responsiblity to see things through in Iraq, at least Republicans do." Listen Pal, I have LIVED through the building of a democracy in a totally destroyed state—a Western state. It took decades, not 2-3 years. You have no clue what you are talking about. The American people are not willing to babysit and pay for a Muslim state for the next 20 to 50 years and beyond. Neither are the Europeans. "but it is possible to have a democratic state with modern universal laws, with a large muslim majority, with islam as the cultural/traditional heritage." Well, past performance is a great indicator of future performance. Given the history of Islam for 1400 years it won't happen unless Islam is no more. --- Faezeh, in every society there are particular factors that make it successful or not. In Africa as well as S. America the issue is the inability of the people to own property as well as despotic leaders. Read Hernando de Soto's works: http://www.ild.org.pe/hernandodesoto.htm as well as George Ayittey's: http://www.aworldconnected.org/people.php/78778.html In Muslims lands it is Islam that have held them back—for centuries. That will continue to be the case unless there is a big change in Islam. I doubt that this will happen anytime soon. Russia, BTW, is doing fine. Certainly much, much better than any ME state. Compared to 10 years ago Russia is on easy street. So are many of the other former Eastern block states. These things tak ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 8, 2004 08:35 PM [permalink]:

". . . If we want to win the war against Islamic terrorism, all of us must join hands and combat Islam on all fronts. But the most important front is the ideological front. The Islamic terrorism is the outcome of Islamic theology. The terrorists, the suicide bombers, are born and raised within the bosom of Islam. It is the belief in Islam and the hate speeches of the Quran that makes them despise the rest of mankind and pushes them to such extremes. We can't fight Islamic terrorism if we do not address its cause." Ali sina

Faith & Freedom International

http://www.faithfreedom.org/



Somayeh Sadat at February 8, 2004 09:02 PM [permalink]:

Wessie:
You say: "Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem!", I wish you (I mean USA) always believed in this phrase and had not interfered in Iran in time of Mosadegh!

Mehdi Y. at February 8, 2004 09:09 PM [permalink]:

Vahid,
you say:
"I sometimes doubt our intuitions, because some of us, we came out of Iran during the hot days of reformists. And we still might be living in that atmosphere, but people in Iran have moved on with their lives. It is very sad ... "

I believe we have to express our opinion even if the majority of people are not happy to hear it. For example, people should be told that they made a big mistake by not voting in the city council election, which was the most free election since 1981.

Just because we don't live in Iran doesn't make our logical arguments any weaker. We still have far more access to information through Internet.

Well, for the upcoming election, there is no choice is left except not voting, but unfortunately the price of any change has gone up considerable higher as the result of the impatiance of people that Yaser talked about.

Wessie at February 8, 2004 09:54 PM [permalink]:

LOL oh the evil machinations of the U.S. in Iran started with the Shah and his land reforms.

Somayeh, are you telling me that you blame the U.S. for EVERYTHING when the writer of the article above says: ". . .It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people deserve those who govern them."

The US is only a couple hundred years old. We can't be responsible for all of Iran's woes. Besides, you all have had several generations to fix the current woes from the Islamic revolution. Why haven't you?

Mehdi, if you don't vote then you should not express your opinion because you have abdicated that right.

Whenever someone gripes in the U.S. the first thing I ask is "did you vote?" If they say no, they have no leg to stand on!

Wessie

Wessie at February 8, 2004 10:01 PM [permalink]:

You know, the problem is we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

The Arabs, Iranians, Muslims, Africans, S. Americans, Europeans are constantly SCREAMING for American to "DO SOMETHING!!!"

When we do, then we are condemned for it.

Like I said. We hardly care anymore. As long as Islamic terrorists don't come over here.

Don't ask us for money, don't ask for help when there is a natural disaster such as Bam. We came, we helped and the mullahs spit into our faces— again!

I think ALL aid and diplomatic relations should be cut off until the recipient countries prove that they deserve it. Countries such as terror sponsoring Egypt do not. And neither does Israel.

So, give me one good reason why we should help Iran? Especially since they want to develop nukes so they can blow Israel to paradise and have nuclear fall-out all over the ME.

Wessie

Somayeh Sadat at February 8, 2004 10:04 PM [permalink]:

Wessie:

I never said I blame US for everything in the history! I just said if you think the problems in Iran are not YOUR problem, you should not have interfered and done harm when people of Iran were initiating a movement towards democracy.

Just as you know, I very much agree with the point of the article saying the problem is with the people, and I was commenting on your comment, not on the article!

WhoMan at February 8, 2004 10:15 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,

Islam did more than conquering civilizations. Maybe Iranians don't owe Islam anything, maybe not. But at least the West owes Islam a debt for preserving the Greek classics and for continuing with scientific enquiry and the advancement of mathematics. The real question is: what happened to reverse the situation if it is reversible? How did the Islamic world go in the wrong direction?

Bashing Islam outright doesn't do anyone good and isn't prodcutive. Now you're suggesting what? Abandonning Islam altogether? Suggest something more practical. BTW, if my dad was a millionaire, I would live quite differently. Can I discuss about my dad and complain that he isn't rich too?

Wessie at February 8, 2004 11:58 PM [permalink]:

Somayeh, please elaborate EXACTLY what you are saying.

It is very tiresome for Muslims to always accuse the U.S. of being to blame for whatever the heck is wrong in their world. Like I said. You have had several GENERATIONS since the "Islamic revolution" to fix whatever the Hell is wrong with your society. WHY DIDN'T YOU???

I, as an American, could NOW blame Muslims for what is wrong with the U.S. and the fact that we have GW Bush as president. Notice that no Americans are doing that. We fix our own problems and don't blame the rest of the word and don't expect anyone else to do it for us! We shall vote.

"But at least the West owes Islam a debt for preserving the Greek classics and for continuing with scientific enquiry and the advancement of mathematics."

WhoMan, give us a break here. Why isn't the WHOLE world genuflecting toward America for all the wonderful things we have invented, developed and discovered??? All those things that Muslims (and everyone else) use in the modern age that makes life so wonderful, without a second though from computer technology to medicine.

Why is it that Muslims want credit for the very, tiny, little bit they contributed to civilization over and over and over again? Maybe because they haven't done a damn thing for over 1000 years!?

"The real question is: what happened to reverse the situation if it is reversible? How did the Islamic world go in the wrong direction?"

What went wrong is that Islam is"immutable" and thus stagnant. Of course it's reversible. But, not without dumping Islam.

Yes, I am for scratching the most fascistic "religion" and going on from there. Because staying with Islam is very, very impractical in the modern age. It will keep Muslims, poor, backward, bigoted and very angry for a long long time.

It will lead to another world war—one that may take the whole planet down. Already the mullahs in Iran are looking for atomic weapons and I, as well as much of the world, believe they will use them.

But, of course, that is what the Islamofasicsts want. Armageddon!

It is up to you, as an educated, elite MEsterner/Muslim (if you are one) to enlighten your fellow Muslims.

No one can educate the ummah but Muslims. No one can bring the truth to them but Muslims. Islam is leading us toward the abyss!

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." — Albert Einstein


Wessie


Somayeh Sadat at February 9, 2004 08:35 AM [permalink]:

Wessie:

I think what I am saying is crystal clear. I am not trying to answer why our people have not fixed their problems, and I am not blaming USA for whatever has happened in the world over the history. I am commmenting on a section of your comment saying: "Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem! ". If that's right, just answer one simple question: Why did USA interfere in Iran in time of Mosadegh?

Wasn't it our problem and we were trying to fix it and you ruined our efforts? You may ask why we didn't fix our problems ever after, I don't want to discuss the answer, but whatever the answer, it does not purify US for interfering at that point of history in Iran.

Next time you think about how kind and nice USA is in throwing money to middle east, also think it has done harm as well, and god knows if it is doing good at this point or not, and what its real intentions are.

Wessie at February 9, 2004 09:22 AM [permalink]:

Somayeh, you are blaming the U.S. (and not also the Brits) for everything with respect to Mosadegh and the rule of the Shah?

Now, my dear, that was a long time ago–more than half a century. In the mean time, Iran has had plenty of time—certainly since the Islamic revolution to get on with things. Mosadegh was one man. You mean there were no other Iranian heroes who could do what he could?

I understand that some people look with great nostalgia at the rule of the Shah, which was benign compared to that of the Islamic mullahs.

"Wasn't it our problem and we were trying to fix it and you ruined our efforts? You may ask why we didn't fix our problems ever after, I don't want to discuss the answer, but whatever the answer, it does not purify US for interfering at that point of history in Iran."

No, of course you don't want to discuss anything at all. You just want to blame YOUR failures—for centuries— onto others.

So, shall we talk about Iran's sponsoring of international Islamic terror? How about the hostages? We too have a long memory. And Iran has done NOTHING to change its image as an Islamic terror state. Iran is still an enemy state as far as the U.S. is concerned. And with mindsets such as yours one can see why.

Blame and victimization that is the culture of Iran and the Middle East. You are an educated person. Why don't you become the next Mosadegh?

Talking to MEesterners is like speaking to drug addicts. They blame everyone else for their problems and will never admit that THEY have a problem.

Wessie


Somayeh Sadat at February 9, 2004 10:12 AM [permalink]:

Once more, I am not blaming US for everything, I am blaming it for one specific thing, which is in contrast to what you say that our problems are none of your business! To make it clear, I agree that Iranians haven't done a lot to change their country. That is not the point of my discussion however!!!

Somayeh Sadat at February 9, 2004 10:13 AM [permalink]:

Once more, I am not blaming US for everything, I am blaming it for one specific thing, which is in contrast to what you say that our problems are none of your business! To make it clear, I agree that Iranians haven't done a lot to change their country. That is not the point of my discussion however!!!

Vahid at February 9, 2004 12:06 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,
Your polititions apologized about their interfrence in case of Mosadegh. Stop repeating yourself and admit that US did wrong!

Faezeh at February 9, 2004 03:39 PM [permalink]:

Yasser
Thanks for your post. It has been a while that I hadn't seen except cursing and insulting reformists and Khatami on online publishing(except in behnoudonline.com).

I feel there is a huge lack of "rational thinking" in what is published online. I don't know how much this effects poeple inside Iran and influences them. But The fact that the only windows except "Seda o Simaa" for young poeple is Iranian-american satellite programs and online blogs and they mostly curse and spread irratinality(in my view) is scaring.

Maybe along with this blog, one should set up a persian website that a sort of rational and open debate can take place online.

This could be much differnet from comments on gooya or behnoudonline, because in this case a considerable amount of young academic iranian students commit themselves to comment with higher standards and posts would enjoy a higher standard too.

I don't know the rules of editors of this site, I hope there would be a way that poeple talk about this topic here.


WhoMan at February 9, 2004 04:57 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,

You said: "Why isn't the WHOLE world genuflecting toward America for all the wonderful things we have invented, developed and discovered???"

Probably you don't put your ears where the world (including Iranians who probably you think live in cave) admire Amercians for those inventions. But keep in mind, the American contribution is also a brick in the human civilization's structure, like any others. So why harping on?
Dumping Islam? Very practical, you think, huh? 70 years of communism couldn't shed religion of the Soviet Union. Listen, Islam, as is, may have problems, but they are not worse than what perhaps some other religions had in their way as challenges.

Can you listen to yourself for a second though? You sound more like an offspring of a wealthy who hasn't suffered from any geographical restrictions or historical setbacks, and now picks on other people who haven't been successful as much.

JFTDMaster at February 9, 2004 06:01 PM [permalink]:

Wessie: I'd like you to read these two articles. The first is an example of a "moderate" muslim group sending out a moderate message. The second is about the election choices in USA, and the relevance of UN and the use of force by America.

Islamic Supreme Council of America

and

A fateful choice

JFTDMaster at February 9, 2004 06:02 PM [permalink]:

oops guess that didnt post

http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/default.asp?pane_2=content-extremism_wahabroots

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=papers&code=04-D_06

Zahra at February 9, 2004 06:22 PM [permalink]:

"Maybe along with this blog, one should set up a persian website that a sort of rational and open debate can take place online."

I agree with Faeze. It seems a great idea. It is enough to translate every article written in this blog, and let people who don't know enough english, leave their comments in the persian part of blog. It will also be interesting to see if the discussions between people who are already living in Iran is different with the discussions in English part or not.

AliS in Wonderland at February 9, 2004 07:00 PM [permalink]:

Mishe yeki ertebate in commentha ro be matne asli bara man tozih bede?

Alis in Wonderland at February 9, 2004 10:09 PM [permalink]:

Salam Yaser
I am not sure if I completely understand your reasoning. The way you put it the problem lies with in the people (something which I am not really sure of) but then why do you think some people (in this case Iranians) have chosen to be indifferent towards what’s happening to them? For nearly all our history we have been ruled by governors which fall into the category of dictators with modern standards. If you think the reason behind this should be sought within people then what has driven Iranians to choose this form of government among all other forms. We never adopted the ancient Greek democracy or the modern one which is currently exercised is many countries. Is it because where we live? (Recall “Ma Chegouneh Ma Shodim?: Sadegh Zibakalam”) Is it because of how we think (if yes then why we think so different?) or is just by pure luck?
Ali

reza at February 10, 2004 02:41 AM [permalink]:

I agree with everything Yaser said. I don't know what the reason is for this wrong behavior in Iranians. Islam, as Wessie pointed out, may be a factor but I am not sure how important it is. Wessie wrote alot (thank you Wessie) but didn't give any reason for her oppinion other than pointing out the correlation between being a Muslem country and not having Democracy.

As an atheist I have found some good points and a lot of bad points in both Christianity an Islam. I will just mention one thing I really liked about Christianity when I heard it first when I came to the US: The whole mission of Jesus (or perhaps 90% of it;)) was to die on cross so that all our sins are forgiven (with such great sacrifice as god's son). I don't think very highly of a person who believs such a story, but I think it has a very good effect on the believer; It's also a partial cure for bad conscience.

One last point: Appearance of Democracy in western countries MAY be only a (approximate) symmetry breaking phenomenon: The world needed to be half democratic and half despotic, And there were lots of small symmetry breaking factors around.

JFTDMaster at February 10, 2004 07:38 AM [permalink]:

"One last point: Appearance of Democracy in western countries MAY be only a (approximate) symmetry breaking phenomenon: The world needed to be half democratic and half despotic, And there were lots of small symmetry breaking factors around."
- That's an interesting point, but how do you explain the spread and deepening of democracy everywhere, from eastern europe to africa? The only exceptions are the majority of Muslim states (that have a freedom deficit), and the completely failed/faliling states. Concepts like "the people" being in charge, and a legally equal system for all of "the people", are characteristics of modern nationalism, and doesn't that naturally lead to democracy? I hope to live to see a day when all the nations are democracies.

JFTDMaster at February 10, 2004 09:44 AM [permalink]:
The Jihadis' Primal Scream Zarkawi's "Yaarrrhhh!" Michael Ledeen Unless you depend on CNN for information - CNN totally and stunningly transformed the story, as Instapundit informed us yesterday - by now you have heard of the New York Times story about the discovery of a 17-page letter from Abu Musab al Zarkawi, written from Iraq in the middle of last month to the leaders of al Qaeda. It's an extremely explosive story. According to the Times - whose correspondent, Dexter Filkins, saw both the Arabic original and a military translation, and "wrote down large parts of the translation" - the letter is a sort of jihadist primal scream. It says that the jihad against the Americans in Iraq is going badly. The Iraqis are not signing up for martyrdom or jihad, they do not even permit the jihadis to organize their terrorist attacks from local houses, and, worst of all, the Americans are not afraid of the terrorists. With that charming neglect of logic that seems to define much of the radical terrorist "mind," Zarkawi says both that the Americans "are the biggest cowards that God has created," and that "America...has no intention of leaving, no matter how many wounded nor how bloody it becomes." And he adds, "we can pack up and leave and look for another land, just like what has happened in so many lands of jihad. Our enemy is growing stronger day after day, and its intelligence information increases." If we had a government capable of advancing its case to the world at large, those phrases would be broadcast around the world, because they constitute an admission of defeat by a man in the forefront of the campaign against us in Iraq. If that were all it said, it would be sensational for most Americans, although certainly not for NRO readers. I pointed out a couple of months ago that the terror masters in Damascus, Tehran, and Riyadh were undoubtedly gnashing their teeth, because their grand design for mass slaughter of Americans and bigtime insurrections all over Iraq, had failed. They had expected a bloodbath of epic proportions, and the same sort of "revolutionary" demonstrations that they had used so effectively against us in Lebanon in the 1980s and against the Israelis a decade later. But instead, they have discovered that the Iraqis don't like them (can we all finally put a nail in the coffin of that idiotic "they're all Shiites so they will all work together" myth?), and that the country is, indeed, headed toward democracy. Zarkawi even uses the word, as he gasps, "by God, this is suffocation!" But there is more. He says the only chance for victory in Iraq is to provoke a Sunni/Shiite civil war, and the best way to do that is to unleash jihad against the Iraqi Shiites - referred to as "the perverse sects" - expecting that they will blame the Sunnis for it. The civil war would then "awaken the sleepy Sunnis..." I have said for some time that the strategy of terror masters - above all, the mullahs in Tehran - was to foster civil strife in Iraq. They have been trying very hard to foment Kurdish/Turkamen, Sunni/Shiite and intertribal conflict for at least the past few months. But they greatly underestimated both the savvy of the Iraqis - who have seen the hundreds of Iranian Revolutionary Guards officers and their al Qaeda allies swarming all over the country, guiding the suicide bombers, organizing the radio and television broadcasts, and intimidating the locals whenever possible - and the slow but deliberate progress of the A ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
michellenyc at February 10, 2004 11:13 AM [permalink]:

I have spent the last weeks reading the blog pages and researching topics regarding Iran. Specifically the political struggles and how this relates to America involvment. We are interested in topics that will allow us to talk specifically about the American media and how this differs from other media around the world. Also how the media involved in the conflicts over the last century are regarded by the locals. Other topics that we would like to discuss include women in Iran and their political struggles and ofcourse an overall view of life in Iran from those who have visited and those who have lived there.

This information is being gathered specifically for an upcoming documentary on Iran: The Land of Roses and Nightengales. My request although broad is simply to get opion of those close to this land and its plights. Plus we are looking for footage, photo's, and diligent sources of information on Iranians (the locals), politics, and the women.

You are welcome to e-mail regarding my upcoming documentary info@sweetmarieproductions.com and when it comes to personal footage please discribe in detail what you have.

Sincerely
Michelle

Wessie at February 10, 2004 11:28 AM [permalink]:
Somayeh, for weeks I have been asking on this website, including on this thread, WHY the Iranians are not really doing anything about their situation. YOU and others constantly obfuscate and want to turn things around blaming the U.S. While the U.S. may have "interfered" that did not prevent the Iranians AFTER that to fix their problems. They have had over half a century to do so. Our politicians have admitted and apologized for "interference"—what the heck do you want from me? " That is not the point of my discussion however!!!" What is your point, aside from taking up bandwidth beating a DEAD HORSE. None of us can do anything about the past. I, we the American people, cannot change the fact that Bush did a very stupid thing by going into Iraq. We can only hope to change it by voting him out and repairing the image with our allies and our enemies. However, voting the Bushies out will not change anyone's mind about violent Islam. The fight against Islamic terrorism shall continue no matter WHO is in the White House. --- "Probably you don't put your ears where the world (including Iranians who probably you think live in cave) admire Amercians for those inventions." . . . You sound more like an offspring of a wealthy who hasn't suffered from any geographical restrictions or historical setbacks, and now picks on other people who haven't been successful as much. You know, WhoMan, people on this website have very thin skins when one tells the truth about Islam and the problems it causes. But, you continually insult intelligent, educated, well travelled Westerners with such comments. Where do you get off saying any such thing!? Not all Americans are ignorant. We have the greatest, most productive society on the planet because at least some of us are educated, smart and well travelled! And you sound like a whining MEsterner who has nothing better to do than to take Western hospitality and spit into our faces and insult us. Will you tell the same to your Ph.D. mentor/sponsor? "Islam, as is, may have problems, but they are not worse than what perhaps some other religions had in their way as challenges." Islam IS THE PROBLEM! And it is much, much WORSE than ANY other religion because MURDER of "unbelievers" is mandated in hundreds of passages. Now, you may not want to see that but the world is catching on. Today AGAIN, murders in the name of Islam. Not murders for freedom, but in the name of blood thirsty allah. I have suggested that when— IF Muslims ever become educated that Islam will fade away onto the dustbin of history where all the other myths have gone. Many apostates say the same. Give me one good reason to keep such a violent, misanthropic religion if you are an educated, thinking person? --- Reza, that is an interesting point you make about symmetry. In that case, we shall never get past this. The Ying, Yang of it will not let us. Prepare to live with Islamic terror forever. :-(( With respect to the Christian view vs. Islamic. Yes, Christianity is supposed to "spread the good news" about Jesus, peace and love—but not via violence as is mandated by Islam. That is the primary difference. Islam is a "religion" of exclusion, misanthropy, war and subjugation while Christianity is a religion of inclusion, love of all peoples, peace and up-lifting positivity. BTW—I am not a Christian, so I don't have an ax to grind here regarding pushing Christianity. ---- JFTDMaster I shall read your articles, but, I hope that you ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Ghazal at February 10, 2004 01:05 PM [permalink]:

I think people’s attitude toward politics at the present is understandable. They don’t see the election to be effective anymore as the reform movement in the frame work of the law and government which would mean compromising with hardliners to get some limited reform has failed. The only available options is to stand against the hardliners face to face and we all know what unpleasant consequences that would imply for individuals (the least is prison, not having the right to work or being expelled from university. To be honest I am really surprise to see there are still some people willing to take these risks. I mean just look around you how many people do you see who have already lost someone close to them for such hopes in the last 25 years and they feel betrayed? How many students got expelled from universities just in last few years? Now look back at the last 100 years, I really can’t blame someone who has already made a sacrifice, willing to live a quiet everyday life with her family. I know we shouldn’t give up so soon but this is such a big gambling, after all I am only going to live once so there better be a great hope and motivation if I am going to lose it or live this life in prison or jobless.

Faezeh at February 10, 2004 03:18 PM [permalink]:

Ghazal
You mentioned a important factor: who should take the risk towards change?

I think Yasser's post somehow addresses this too. Our poeple left the risk free measures of change(like elections of City counsil) and showed the green sign to conservatives to move fearless of empty-backed reformists.

We ignored(or understimated) the risk free measures and lose a winning situation and naturally ended up in a losing situation where high risk tasks are needed only to make a little diffrence(like street deminstrations or what univ. students do)

WhoMan at February 10, 2004 04:51 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,

I don't understand your double standard. While you insult others culture and background, people should be thick skinned, but you seem to be easily offended when the tables are turned.

You take a few low and unfortuate centruies out of history and bash a culture that has been the cradle of civilization and downplay its role without being able to wrap your head around its magnitude (judging from your previous comments)and the historical burden it carries around. This is while the western civilization has been able to pull itself out of the muck only for the last few centuries. I am sorry, but playing it up is just sheer arrogance and ignoring history. That's for my comment on wealthy offspring, and NO, my "Ph.D. mentor/sponsor" is not like that.

Wessie,I came here to just have a respectful debate and learn one thing or two. It seems to me there should be some level of respect towards each other's background in every debate unless we don't mean to have a cohesive and constructive debate. But instead I see you "continually" bash and expect this to be a one way street.So I am outta here.But let me finish with this:
I think Islam needs a serious review. Yet you managed to alienate me. I wonder what kind of effect your tone and language has on people who don't think like me.

Cheers!

yaser at February 10, 2004 07:48 PM [permalink]:

Alis in Wonderland

I don't really know the answer to your question. What I have said is that the people's indiffirence and impatiance has made us to be here at this point. But why it is like this and what are the roots of this problem I don't know:( My main point is that people has to get more involved in the fight between reformists and conservative.

PS : I don't have any answer to your first question either:( which I found actually as much important.

Alis in Wonderland at February 11, 2004 01:40 AM [permalink]:

Yasser
Thank you for your answer. I am also puzzled how we have ended up being ruled by such system but I think maybe finding the reason is the key to the solution and would reveal why we have not shown patience and interest regarding our own faith.

Ali

P.S. Thank you for appreciating my first question. Believe me sometimes I am discouraged to write when I don’t see the connection between the comments and the main post.

An Iranian Student (AIS) at February 11, 2004 05:09 AM [permalink]:

You might like to read this article:
Between the Potomac and the Euphrates

Especially for those people who are still living in a fairytale under the illusion that the reformists were EVER the CAUSE of any progress in Iran, or that the continuance of this CIRCUS is of any benefit for Iran in the long run. (Then again, probably not...you know what Sa'di said about 'Gerdakan' and 'Gonbad'.)
I have already given my reasons in another post, so I won't bother anymore.

It is just interesting that this side, the 'left' for want of a better word in Iran, can ALWAYS insult the people for its own incompetence and get away with it. Any of this comes from any other group and the cries go to heaven.
I don't really want to waste our time to explore the 'mentality' of the likes of Shamsolvaezin here, so I let it go at that.

It is also interesting to see the same kind of shallow 'logic', that became an epidemic in 1997, start to rise up again (hopefully it would just stop there this time) and that the urge to fetch the stick is being felt once more.
I used to be fooled by such 'arguments' myself in the firts year and a half after 1997. Somehow I projected my personal experience, lonely and helpless being arrested by a bunch of thugs for 'living' like a normal human being and my feeling of despair and need to compromise with those animals to get free again, unto a president and a parliament with millions of votes behind them. Amazing isn't it? Somehow I tended to ignor the fact that they come from within this gang, each of them has all sorts of ties hidden or overt (usually tied by marriage as Mafia families) just to reach the 'marvelous' opinion that they 'NEEDED' my support or that they were doing this becxause of my future and their good will. I woke up thought to see the truth that they all belong to another TRIBE, to an enemy tribe, alien to me or whatever I considered natural. Then I stopped projecting myself, my needs and my hopes unto THEM.
Some of us here seem still to be under this illusion. Nice dreams, my friends. After all reality is a bit too harsh isn't it? Why wake up?

It is also interesting how the normal common 'street' people in Iran, in the are almost always more intelligent and think more correctly than their 'intellectuals', and how when ever they trusted those 'learned' people against their own gut feelings , catastrophy followed. I hope they won't do that this time.

So just to set the records, I support the ACTION of resigning, but I do not support in any way any of these CIRCUS REFORMISTS!

In the mean time I get more and more assured of being right in wishing Bush to win this election. Here is yet another reason:
Mullahs endorsing the democrats and vice versa

and while you are at it, read this intelligent commentary as well.

I am very busy studying and have found more useful and urgent things to do with my time these days (like bugging the MOSSAD for my late payment, shouldn't I, my practicing muslim comrads?), so I bid farewell for the moment.
'Alaqelo esharaton yakfih' (for the wise, a hint suffices)

Onc more:
Between the Potomac and the Euphrates

READ IT! ;->


-------------
PS. JFTDMaster, keep up the debate. you are doing great!

AIS at February 11, 2004 05:37 AM [permalink]:

Just one more thing I forgot to point to.
It is opbvious that Iran will not be remedied in a night. That in a long run, a lengthy process of reform is needed.
the problem however with this one, and whatever has happened in the past 26-7 years is that everything is out of phase. Iranians under the stupid guidance of their indoctrinated intellectuals became 'revolutionary' exactly when they should have been reformists. They became 'nationalist' and 'idelaist' when they should have been pragmatist. They baceme 'pragmatist' (or a caricature of it, to be more precise) when they shouyld ahve been revolutionary and nationlists.
It is like using a wave as an externall kick to your own to make the ampplitude higher. The wave might be exactly what you need, with the right frequency and wavelength and apmplitude, but if is is so out of phase the result of this very same wave is the utter neutrilization of all that you had already.
That was it, sorry.

AIS at February 11, 2004 05:46 AM [permalink]:

Sorry for this alst point, I'll make it quick.
No I don't have the total answer to this hoprrible situation that we find ourselves in Iran either, and unlike others I don't go around acting as if I do. But I do know whne something is NOT the answer and I will say it as it is.
That's all.

Wessie at February 11, 2004 10:11 AM [permalink]:

"I think Islam needs a serious review. Yet you managed to alienate me. I wonder what kind of effect your tone and language has on people who don't think like me."

WhoMan Islamic terrorism has managed to alienate the whole world. Nice of you to bail when the truth is placed out into the light—but, very typical.

Show me a specific insult I have posted. Please link or posts it. You have posted many personal insults to me, suggesting that I am less than educated, know nothing of the world, etc.

The TRUTH is not an insult! Islam has not done a thing to move humanity forward for 1000 years. Your culture may have been the "cradle of civilization or not. Iraq claims to be that place and the Egyptians tend to think of themselves as the "cradle" too. Although neither one has done a thing in the last 500 years—ditto for Iran! Iran nor ANY Muslim nation has not developed, invented or brought forth ANYTHING in the last 500 years to benefit humanity. But, they take from the West with impunity, bash our way of life and our culture and then want to destroy us with our own technology and freedoms.

In the last two days almost 100 people have AGAIN been murdered by Islam. It will come to you—whether you want to ignore politics or not!

"I came here to just have a respectful debate and learn one thing or two. It seems to me there should be some level of respect towards each other's background in every debate unless we don't mean to have a cohesive and constructive debate."

MEsterners/Muslims constantly want— no— DEMAND "respect" but, they give— none! You have shown me no respect. You have insulted my world view, my education, my travels. You have assumed I am some rube sitting in some backwater American town. Who the HELL do you think you are, WhoMan? You are lucky to be in the West, given that you come from an enemy state.

We too feel it is a waste of time to speak to MEsterners of any stripe. When the going gets tough—they bail. Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out, WhoMan. Another Persian prince (or princess), hiding from reality— violent Islamic reality will come to you no matter what you do to hide.

There are a bunch of effete Persian princes like you hereabouts who whine and complain—but "suffer" for their Iran under their nice lives in the West, while doing nothing for their own nation. It is Muslims and MEsterners who should be cleaning up Islam. But, as is typical of Islam—they will let the dhimmis do it.

What a fake you are!

---

Here AIS is an article on the democrats and their lack of foreign policy:

"A DEMOCRATIC WORLD"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040216fa_fact1

If the mullahs or any Islamic terrorists are foolish enough to believe that a democratic president will, in this day and age, let them off the hook, they are mistaken!

The Dems are getting stronger and more focused. Bush will get a run for his money. :-)


Wessie

Wessie at February 11, 2004 01:30 PM [permalink]:

Señor Græd —"All Roads Lead To Rome."

When in Rome. . . do as the Romans do!!!

If you are in the West then you need to respect Western customs.

---

Egypt students protest French ban

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/568D4FE1-ABAA-4DEC-85EF-483331EEB32B.htm

Why don't Muslims, who seem to have nothing better to do, protest Turkey's ban on hijab?

Why don't Westerners protest the mandate of non-Muslim women to have to wear those ugly-making-veils when in an Islamic country?

German State Proposes New Headscarf Ban

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040211/ap_on_re_eu/germany_headscarf_ban

"In Kuala Lumpur, about 40 supporters of the fundamentalist Islamic PAS, the biggest opposition party in mainly Muslim Malaysia, protested against the law outside the French embassy chanting “Long live Islam” and “Crush the infidels.”

---

Islamic hypocrisy! Always wanting special privileges for Muslims. The West is not, Not, NOT Muslim! We don't cover our women with shrouds unless they are dead.

The Islamic head-scarf is a radical political symbol and has little to do with "free speech" or democracy. It is to promote Islam's militancy and the subjugation of women. Muslims should stay in Islamic countries if they want to wear or promote the hijab!

Why don't Muslims worry about their backward situation in the world, their economies, their Islamic terror— Instead of protesting about how the West conducts its business?

"Islamic Democracy" is an oxymoron!

Wessie

JFTDMaster at February 11, 2004 05:29 PM [permalink]:

Wessie, wanted to reply to your comments from the other page: (I can't seem to post there).

"I have seen fascism up close. Have you?"
- I've seen an islamist terrorist attack up close. Have you?

"When was the last time you were out of the U.S.?"
- Well I was in the US a few weeks ago, but generally I live in Canada.

"Do you speak any foreign language fluently?"
- Yes, one fluently and another one pretty well.

"Have you ever lived abroad?"
- Yep, in central asia for 10 years and the middle east for 3.

"Have you ever spoken at length to people abroad in their own language?"
- Yeppers.

Any more silly questions? I guess you're trying to portray me as inexperienced and naive, while only you know all the answers.


Hmm now for this page:

"Islam has not done a thing to move humanity forward for 1000 years. Your culture may have been the "cradle of civilization or not."
- I'm not sure what you mean by that, people here are Iranian more than Islamic if you haven't noticed, as are the majority within Iran. And "islamic science" back when, was driven by iranian, jewish and indian scientists.

"The Dems are getting stronger and more focused. Bush will get a run for his money. :-) "
- Competition is good. :)

Wessie at February 11, 2004 06:40 PM [permalink]:

"Any more silly questions? I guess you're trying to portray me as inexperienced and naive, while only you know all the answers."

Turn about is fair play, JFTDMaster. ;-)

You started all this BS on the other thread by trying to categorize me as a "neo-con" and when that didn't seem to fit you decided I must be a "liberal." That didn't work either. You also stated that I didn't understand how fascism worked. That didn't fit either because I have much experience in the land of fascists. Your insinuation that I must not know anything about Islam didn't hold water because I have studied Islam most of my adult life—which is longer than most of the people on this website have been alive. You also insinuated I was not educated and have not travelled. Well, you are also wrong about that. I have advanced degrees, have not only traveled a great deal, but was born abroad (and I don't mean Canada) speak half a dozen languages—several with native fluency.

" And "islamic science" back when, was driven by iranian, jewish and indian scientists."

Yes, indeed— the dhimmis. Islam is not innovative. I have said that for years. It is well known that Islam squelches any sorts of discovery and entrepreneurial spirit. If it were not for the conquered peoples, like the Persians and the Byzantines, Islam would not have been "on top"—when it was on top. Which was a hell of a long time ago—and they have not done anything since! Islam has retreated into itself since 1492 and began its decline about 400 years after its inception.

LOL So, what precisely is your point here, JFTDMaster?

I shall continue to claim that "Islamic Democracy" is an oxymoron! And that GW Bush is an arrogant, intellectually challenged, screw up. The proof is in the pudding which is piling up like so much $#!+ —and stinks to high heaven.

Wessie


Wessie at February 11, 2004 07:16 PM [permalink]:

When I Love You

When I love you
A new language springs up,
New cities, new countries discovered.
The hours breathe like puppies,
Wheat grows between the pages of books,
Birds fly from your eyes with tiding of honey,
Caravans ride from your breasts carrying Indian herbs,
The mangoes fall all around, the forests catch fire
And Nubian drums beat.

When I love you your breasts shake off their shame,
Turn into lightning and thunder, a sword, a sandy storm.
When I love you the Arab cities leap up and demonstrate
Against the ages of repression
And the ages
Of revenge against the laws of the tribe.
And I, when I love you,
March against ugliness,
Against the kings of salt,
Against the institutionalization of the desert.
And I shall continue to love you until the world flood arrives;
I shall continue to love you untill the world flood arrives.

Nizar Qabbani

WhoMan at February 11, 2004 08:00 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,

Answering your comments would make me cross the line of comment policies in here. You and I can spare the rest from the grunge though. Follow my link. My email address is on my blog. Send me your comments if you want. I'll tell you why I think your opinion is also equally or perhaps more destructive and danagerous to the world than what you think is the problem. I'll tell you why you can't look down on the poeple who you are involved with in a discussion ... unless all you are after is having a monologue. And I'll tell you why you shouldn't get angry when someone uses the same in-your-face tone and stands up to you.

P.S. Are you a university professor? 'Cause I am not a student.

somebody at February 11, 2004 08:11 PM [permalink]:

"When I Love You"

Yeah, yeah, yeah!
So now by reciting this poem, you proved to be cosmopolitan ot the melting pot itself:)! That you know so much about the culture! Tell you what! It’s like as if I recited one of Mayakofsky’s poems for a bunch of Russians to prove to them that I know their culture better than them! Give yourself a break! I have feeling that since people don’t bother replying to your comments any more, you think that you have silenced them with your “argument”!
Well, I don’t mind you trying to boast your own ego and feel good about your being “multilingual” with an “advanced” degree, but just to let you know, when I see your comments I don’t even bother reading them and wasting my precious time!

This is what I call “A sea (or if you like to complement yourself, you might as well use “an ocean”) with a depth of one inch”
Good night!

Wessie at February 11, 2004 08:56 PM [permalink]:

WhoMan, if you want an e-mail from me, you will get old an grey waiting. LOL

"And I'll tell you why you shouldn't get angry when someone uses the same in-your-face tone and stands up to you."

You don't seem to take your own advice, WhoMan. I am not the least bit angry. I don't give a rat's a** WHAT you think. Because you have proven that you don't think at all. You only change the subject.

-------

"but just to let you know, when I see your comments I don’t even bother reading them and wasting my precious time!. . ."

Ah—well, you appear to have done just that and even posted. Now why is that?

". . .. the Arab cities leap up and demonstrate
Against the ages of repression
And the ages
Of revenge against the laws of the tribe.
. . .March against ugliness,
Against the kings of salt,
Against the institutionalization of the desert."

These are the lines that fascinate me in that poem. Apparently there is not enough "love" in the Arab world, Somebody. Not much in Iran either. But, the mullahs love you all.

---


Eye of the Storm: Teheran jamboree

"Militants from some 40 countries across the globe are trekking to Teheran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out.

". . .
The guest list reads like a who's who of global terrorism.

In fact, most of the organizations attending the event, labeled "Ten-Days of Dawn," are branded by the United States and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. These include 17 branches of the Hizbullah, a worldwide militant Shi'ite movement created by Teheran in 1983.

Today, Teheran is a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds. The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Thus militant Sunni organizations, including two linked to al-Qaida - Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party) - enjoy Iranian hospitality. They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organizations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Trotskyites to Guevarists. Teheran today is also the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. . . "

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1074745156578

Good show! You all must be so proud! The Great Satan just can't compete with that.

Talking to MEsterners is like screaming at amoeba in a barrel. ;-) Quite frankly, my dear, I (and others in the world) don't give a damn!

You are fascinating to watch though, spinning around in a circle chasing your tails, lying to yourselves and the world— all the time.


Wessie

JFTDMaster at February 11, 2004 10:00 PM [permalink]:

"You started all this BS "
- incorrect, my comments are responses to specific things you said

"You also stated that I didn't understand how fascism worked. That didn't fit either because I have much experience in the land of fascists."
- And that proves what?

"Your insinuation that I must not know anything about Islam didn't hold water because I have studied Islam most of my adult life—which is longer than most of the people on this website have been alive."
- I did not insinuate that: what I insinuated is that you do not know everything about islam, and that other people might have some insight as well.
I would also like to insinuate now that you should try to be polite.

"You also insinuated I was not educated and have not travelled."
- I did....?

"I have advanced degrees, have not only traveled a great deal, but was born abroad (and I don't mean Canada) speak half a dozen languages—several with native fluency."
- If I understand correctly this is a place to discuss things... the issue is not that how many pieces of paper you earned, the issue is making convincing arguements. "Insinuating" that everyone on this forum who disagrees with you is incapable of thinking proves what?

I was born and raised in Uzbekistan, I've lived in Israel, so what?

>
- They were not dhimmis, they kept their culture but they also became muslims. The point is that people in Iran are capable of thinking and science and development.

WhoMan at February 11, 2004 11:30 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,
Yout got A LOT of loose tags. Fix'em.

Wessie at February 12, 2004 07:13 AM [permalink]:
I never said I knew "everything" about Islam. You insulted me, JFTDMaster, REPEATEDLY by claiming I know little about Islam and you threw in a few other insults as well—such as calling me a "neo-con" and a "liberal" and knowing nothing about fascism, etc. But, you being who you are, that does not count. It is only an "insult" if I, a Westerner, retaliate in kind or defend myself— then, your type screams "foul." ;-) I know a lot more about Islam than many people here, who are atheist. I also know a lot more than those religious Muslims, like Hajir, who pick and choose the "peaceful" passages out of the Muslim Terror Manual the Qur'an, and ignore the hundreds of violent sura that abrogate the few, the handful that say things like, "there is no compulsion in religion." "They were not dhimmis, they kept their culture but they also became muslims. The point is that people in Iran are capable of thinking and science and development." Right. Islam makes life impossible for dhimmis who are afforded second class "citizenship." Additionally, the jizya (poll tax) makes life untenable. Thus, conquered peoples become Muslims and then fail to prosper. The issue of no tax for Muslims is also a bit of a problem for a viable state—as evidenced by the legions of failing Islamic states. That is why they have developed virtually NOTHING in hundreds of years but Islamic terror. When Iranians or other Muslims come to the West, they can think. But, living under Islam, they are not permitted to do so. Wherever Islam rules there is misery, illiteracy, backwardness and despotism. Anything Muslims use for the modern "good life" has come from Western culture, that they of course decry and despise like so many on this website. WhoMan is a good example. S/he lives in the West, but bitches constantly about how terrible life is here. I say—LEAVE! Go to a perfect, Islamic land where the rivers flow with non-intoxicating wine, where serving boys bring translucent raisins and where there is no poverty, illiteracy or crime. Where every person is free to live the "perfect" life of which Muslims dream. LEAVE! If the West is so terrible, go where life is better. JFTDMaster, why don't you tell us EXACTLY what Muslims have developed either scientifically or otherwise in the last say 500 years. The bomb the Iranians are developing they STOLE from the West. That will move humanity forward won't it—and fast. Where do you want to be when they drop it—(and they will)—given that you are no longer in Israel? ;-) "I would also like to insinuate now that you should try to be polite." I should be "polite" and what should YOU be? I am being exactly like you! You don't seem to like that reflection. Tough! That is typical of MEsterners. They are RUDE and INSULTING, but, pretend their sh** doesn't stink. If one retaliates in kind—they scream "racism" or "bigotry" or some other BS. You stop calling me a "liberal," "neo-con," "know-nothing-about-Islam" or anything else, etc. and we'll talk. ;-) Turn about is fair play. YOU be polite and we can play. (See below.) Now, why don't you get on WhoMan's case with the issue of being impolite? Or is s/he a member of your tribe and families have to stick together? --- "Yout [sic] got A LOT of loose tags. Fix'em."[sic] I guess that's supposed to be an insult—again, WhoMan? ;-) But, since you are who you are, it does not count as an insult—right? LOL Perhaps you are you talking about HTML tags? In which case you should check out y ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
WhoMan at February 12, 2004 09:19 AM [permalink]:

Poll tax? A more civilized appraoch as opposed to what Christians did, I'd say.
Throughout the centuries (except the last 50 years) while the rest of Europe was imposing its uncompromising religious and cultural rule on its nonconformist minorities (research for the origion of gypsies in Europe to get some impression of systematic treatment of Jews), religious minorities have always enjoyed relative freedoms in the Islamic region. You can find Jewish, Christian, Zoroasterian neighborhoods in the Iranian conservative cities. Jewish and Christians lived relatively peacefully along Muslims throughout the region without the need to hide their religion something that they have had to do up until fairly recently.. Bill Maher is a Catholic raised from Irish Jewish parents for god's sake.
There were Muslim on Muslim crack-downs in the ME, though, but so were Christian on Christian ones in Europe.

JFTDMaster at February 12, 2004 09:46 AM [permalink]:

"You insulted me, JFTDMaster, REPEATEDLY by claiming I know little about Islam and you threw in a few other insults as well—such as calling me a "neo-con" and a "liberal" and knowing nothing about fascism, etc. "
- I did not claim you know little about Islam: I claimed that Islam can be reformed/re-interpreted to some extent, I claimed that there are moderate Muslism who are being silenced and oppressed and whom we should help, you claimed I'm wrong. And a "neo-con" might be an insult to you, but I'm a "neo-con". Saying you should be a neo-con is not an insult. I was explaining to you that a "neo-con" often is someone at the political center, which you claim to be. And yet here I am, a "neo-con", telling you that Islam doesn't need to be wiped out? Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of millions of people in the world might die over the next few decades if we we attempt to wipe out Islam instead of supporting real moderates?

"Islam makes life impossible for dhimmis who are afforded second class "citizenship." Additionally, the jizya (poll tax) makes life untenable."
- Jews contributed alot of science to "muslim world" despite being "oppressed" and "dhimmis". In fact, christianity has been oppressive to jews since approximately 1000 AD, much more than the Muslims, so?

Once again: a modern democracy can be made, with Islam as the accepted cultural background instead of the dominant force: that is what people in Iran are likely to do soon anyways. You should support that, instead of trying to insult them. That's the point..

"Now, why don't you get on WhoMan's case with the issue of being impolite? Or is s/he a member of your tribe and families have to stick together?"
- He hasn't insulted me.. and I doubt he's nearly as blond as me.. but who cares.

Wessie at February 12, 2004 10:14 AM [permalink]:

"a modern democracy can be made, with Islam as the accepted cultural background instead of the dominant force: that is what people in Iran are likely to do soon anyways. You should support that, instead of trying to insult them. That's the point.."

It does not matter what I or you support or believe. The West has helped and supported Muslims for years and it has gotten us nowhere. It is Iranians/Muslims who must make that Islamic democracy. I say it cannot be done! You say it can! So, we agree to disagree and we shall see what happens. Regardless it will not happen in our life times.

" Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of millions of people in the world might die over the next few decades if we we attempt to wipe out Islam instead of supporting real moderates?"

I am talking about EDUCATING not killing. I have said that over and over again. I am against war in general but have no problem using force. Yet, you claimed on the other thread that I would not use force. Why do you always claim I said something else? The proof is still there. Educating! And once they are educated Islam may fade away like other dead myths.

"- Jews contributed alot of science to "muslim world" despite being "oppressed" and "dhimmis". In fact, christianity has been oppressive to jews since approximately 1000 AD, much more than the Muslims, so?"

That was hundreds of years ago. I told you, historically Islam had to let the dhimmi do their thing because otherwise Muslims could not have ruled their huge empire. Today no religion is free under Islam. Islam suppresses and terrorizes the "other." Muslims use the Qur'an as their justification—because the Qur'an says, "kill the unbelievers where you find them."

Just look at Iraq. Already the Muslims are trying to force the Christians to convert or else. (Or else means—death.) In Saudi Arabia no one can practice their own religion. Just try to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia. In Pakistan Hindus and Christians are persecuted and murdered, ditto in Malaysia and Thailand and on and on.

It is a fantasy to believe that Islam is tolerant. Just READ the Qur'an. Islam is militant and misanthropic.

And by the way—to me, "neo-con" is an insult just as "liberal" is an insult. And you certainly used these as insults on the other thread with impunity and quite deliberately.

This is a dead horse. Muslims have to fix their problems. We can talk until we are blue in the face—it won't make a damn bit of difference.

Wessie

Wessie at February 12, 2004 10:38 AM [permalink]:
WhoMan, you really need to go live in a tolerant Islamic land. Canada is clearly much too Christian and repressive for you. You might also read some Islamic history. Lots of brutality—that still goes on today. Muslims still chop off limbs, rape women, gouge out eyes and generally treat people much better than the decadent West. ". . . Al-Mawardi then distinguishes two cases: (I) Payment is made immediately and is treated like booty, however “it does, however, not prevent a jihad being carried out against them in the future.” 40 . (II). Payment is made yearly and will “constitute an ongoing tribute by which their security is established.” 41. Reconciliation and security last as long as the payment is made. If the payment ceases, then the jihad resumes. A treaty of reconciliation may be renewable, but must not exceed 10 years 42. In the chapter “The Division of the Fay and the Ghaneemah” (booty), al- Mawardi examines the regulations pertaining to the land taken from the infidels. With regard to land taken through treaty, specifically, he indicates two possibilities: either the infidels convert or they pay the jizya and their life and belongings are protected 43. ". . .“…The infidel who wishes to pay his poll tax must be treated with disdain by the collector: the collector remains seated and the infidel remains standing in front of him, his head bowed and his back bent. The infidel personally must place the money on the scales, while the collector holds him by the beard, and strikes him on both cheeks…” 45 ". . .“ Our religion compels the poll tax to be paid by dying people, the old, even in a state of incapacity, the blind, monks, workers, and the poor, incapable of practicing a trade. As for people who seem to be insolvent at the end of the year, the sum of the poll tax remains a debt to their account until they should become solvent.” 51 ". . .“One saw…horrible scenes of every sort of torture; nor did [they] forget to tax the dead; the multitude of orphans and widows suffered the same cruelty; priests and ministers at the holy sanctuary were forced by the vile punishments of flogging and whipping to disclose the names of the dead and their parents; in short the whole population of the country, smitten with enormous taxes, after having paid large sums of zuze [silver coins], also had to wear a lead seal around their necks…as for the lower classes of the population, it had been exposed to different sorts of torture: some suffered flagellation for being unable to pay exorbitant taxes; others were hanged on gibbets, or crushed under presses; and others were stripped of their clothing and thrown into lakes in the depths of an extremely cold winter: and soldiers spaced out on the banks prevented them clambering ashore and forced them to perish wretchedly…” 54 ". .. “…The kaid Uwida and the kadi Mawlay Mustafa had mounted their tent today near the Mellah [Jewish ghetto] gate and had summoned the Jews in order to collect from them the poll tax [jizya] which they are obliged to pay the sultan. They had me summoned also. I first inquired whether those who were European-protected subjects had to pay this tax. Having learned that a great many of them had already paid it, I wished to do likewise. After having remitted the amount of the tax to the two officials, I received from the kadi’s guard two blows in the back of the neck. Addressing the kadi and the kaid, I said” ‘Know that I am an Italian protected subject.’ Whereupon the kad ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 12, 2004 11:46 AM [permalink]:

UN Uncovers New Iranian Atomic Secrets-Diplomats


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040212/wl_nm/iran_nuclear_design_dc

Any day now, some mad-mullah/mufti, insane-imam, or demented-ayatollah will blow us all to paradise and those 72 raisins. ;-)

"The U.N. nuclear watchdog has uncovered designs for machines in Iran that can be used to make bomb-grade material, calling into question Tehran's cooperation with the agency, diplomats said Thursday. . .

"There's always been a suspicion that Iran got the more advanced (G2) and there's some concern that they might be building an undeclared facility someplace that would utilize both the G1 and G2 for the production of weapons grade uranium," Samore told Reuters.


". . . Another sensitive subject at the meeting will be Iran's decision to continue manufacturing and assembling centrifuges, despite promising in November not to. . ."

---

Taqiyya! Dissimulation for the sake of Islam.

Eat, drink and be merry folks—because Islam is going to take out the planet.

Wessie

WhoMan at February 12, 2004 11:47 AM [permalink]:

"THAT, was what started the Crusades. Muslims were are the gates of Vienna twice. That is what I think of each time I eat a croissant— the defeat of Islam's crescent."

- I told that you had some loose tags desparately looking for some fixes. It is on some levels personal for you, isn't it?

- Listen, many people around me think the way I think, and they are not from ME BTW. But if they answered you (they have read your colourful comments in this thread) with the exact same tone i used here, you might call them some naive lefties living in la la land that haven't opened their eyes (they arenot lefties), but when I use the same comments, I am an intolerant and impolite ME'er. So who is treating whom as a second class citizen?

- The problem with you (even though these people I mentioned think I have a problem too since I am continuing this conversation with you) is that you storm into every conversation with some offensive (you don't even see that) comments, and worse, expect everyone else to sign up to the way you eat your croissant. But if anyone tries to stand up to you with the same language, s/he is impolite, huh? So much for double standard. You even take every figure of speech as a personal attack. So who is intolerant and can't take the point in the comment made. The prequisite to every cohesive discussion is mutual respect. You have a point or two in your opinion, but you raise them in the most inefficient way. BTW, have you ever noticed that you have an arrogant tone as if you look down on people who you debate with in this website? THESE STICK OUT MORE THAN WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAY.

- I do appreciate the environment that I am in in the sense that I think I belong here. But I know it hasn't been like this all the time, and you know that too.

- There are tons of other quotes contradicting the quotes you brought here. So what?

Wessie at February 12, 2004 12:08 PM [permalink]:

" It is on some levels personal for you, isn't it? "

Yes, indeed, WhoMan, you could say that 9/11 and all the other Islamic terror attacks are very personal. Everyday it gets more personal—everyday there are more dead bodies in the name of Islam.

Maybe you will think of them as personal when the Mullahs throw the bomb and you are in the way or not far enough away. They won't differentiate between "good" Muslims and "infidels" you know. ;-)

As to the rest of your diatribe. Why don't you re-read the thread. You are the one who started the insults—NOT ME! All the things you claim I have said is your fantasy. Post the quotes—I dare you!

"You have a point or two in your opinion, but you raise them in the most inefficient way."

Inefficient? I post links and articles while you have not even addressed the subject—ONCE.

"There are tons of other quotes contradicting the quotes you brought here. So what?"

The quotes I brought here are from Islamic scholars, Western scholars, the Qur'an, the hadith and news stories.

Now I will say something. That is that you are clearly either, very stupid or very ignorant, WhoMan. Now, if that is true it is not an insult. You don't know your history and you don't know the Qur'an or the hadith. You don't even know what is in the news. If you do know ANYTHING, why don't you make a cohesive argument instead of constantly posting your unsupported opinion totally off subject?

". . .have you ever noticed that you have an arrogant tone as if you look down on people who you debate with in this website? THESE STICK OUT MORE THAN WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAY. . ."

Now who is reading something into what I post. I post facts with supporting docs and you take them as "insults." You appear to also have a complex—which is typical. Muslims/MEsterners are always "insulted" and "humiliated" by their own ignorance showing.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and see. Not once have you posted on subject.

You continue to blather about nothing, trying to "show" me what—exactly??? Post on subject for Pete's sake!

Do Muslims have the government they deserve? Do the Iranians? I say YES!!! What do you say?

Wessie


Wessie at February 12, 2004 12:53 PM [permalink]:
"We believe that Islamic society has been held back by an unwillingness to subject its beliefs, laws and practices to critical examination, by a lack of respect for the rights of the individual, and by an unwillingness to tolerate alternative viewpoints or to engage in constructive dialogue. . ." http://www.secularislam.org/ Above is part of the Mission Statement of "Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society." I believe it is absolutely correct and right on. The problem can be seen right here on this website. Each and every time anyone posts something that points out the failings of Muslims/MEsterners someone says, "Yes, but. . . Christians did this or Jews did that or America is not or Europe is that". . . etc. When that is not, Not, NOT the issue! The issue on this website, is Iran, ME politics, Islam and how those are holding Muslims prisoners in the middle ages—at best. If someone posts and article on another subject, poetry, art, literature or whatever, then we could discuss that. But, at the moment, all the articles (few as they are) are about politics. Self examination seems to be something that MEsterners can't do without getting defensivly ugly. The history of Islam is UGLY and brutal, filled with failures especially the last 500 years. Face it, fix it—and move on! --- Below an article from a distinguished Iranian who tells the truth. Perhaps the truth is easier to hear from a "Landsman"? http://www.hoveyda.org/links.html Open your eyes High time for Muslims to reject once antiquated clerics and leaders July 18, 2002 The Iranian It is high time for Muslims in general and Arabs in particular to stop accusing others of their awkward and largely self-inflicted predicament. It is high time for them to abandon resort to suicide-bombings and international terrorism. It is high time for them to recognize their own shortcomings and work at redressing them. A few years back, a World Bank report remarked that the total exports of the Arab world (representing more than 200 millions persons), other than fossil fuel, amounted to less than those of Finland (a country of five million inhabitants). The GDP of Spain is greater than that of all 22 Arab countries combined. The most recent Arab Human Development Report compiled under United Nations auspices by Arab scholars and experts, concluded that lack of political freedoms, discrimination against women and shortage of quality education, have led to a substantial development gap between Arab countries and far poorer regions of the world. These are some truths that bin Laden, sheikh Yassin and other militant Islamic fundamentalists should tell Arab youth instead of sending them toward suicide-bombings. But actually, the decay of the once resplendent Islamic civilization started as early as the 12th century because people of this remote past who resembled today's bin Ladens and sheikh Yassins, triumphed over more liberal clerics and imposed fundamentalist interpretations of the Koran that still constitute the basis of mainstream Islam. Indeed, in years 1000, the Muslim world was the most advanced and prosperous part of the planet. The West which then steeped in backwardness and poverty stared with envy toward Bagdad and Cordoba . Its academics flocked at the frontiers of Andalusia to acquire manuscripts and learn science. In these first years of the 21st century, all Muslim nations, Arab or not, rich or poor, linger far behind the West and even many developing no ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Señor Græd at February 12, 2004 01:20 PM [permalink]:

To be honest, I haven't been able to read all the W-W exchange in the comments above (and I am not going to learn how to read fast, because I think that is quite a stupid idea. I haven't even read the mail entry: it was long and that goes beyond my attention span), but I've managed to read bits and pieces of this exchange. Anyhow, I don't know whether it is relevant or not, but I wanted to express my admiration for the level of patience WhoMan shows in this (futile?) debate/battle. :-)

WhoMan at February 12, 2004 01:37 PM [permalink]:

- When I said personal, I meant more personal than 9/11.

- Your insults are all over in here, I don't have to re-post them. The only problem is that you wouldn't see them. You think what you're saying is the truth and are surprisingly taken aback on why some here have stood up to you, 'cause probably you're not used to being challenged. The other thing is that you don't know as a "well-educated" person that there are other things which other people deem as TRUTH. But you wouldn't accept them. That's why I don't give a hoot about debating with you as long as you are acting as an self-righteous (are you a religious fundamentalist?).

- I say it again ('cause you don't seem to understand it). There are tons of other quotes by Islamic scholars, Western scholars, the Qur'an, the hadith and news stories that contradicts what you are bringing from other people. Put your ears in the other spots too, you'll hear things that might surprise you!

- You're suggesting me to listen to people who have turned away from Islam. What do I expect from them to hear? Islam is a great religion but they're carzy? Of course I don't expect to hear anything but negative about Islam. You better look at your own backyard to see that the religion that is having such a huge impact on your croisant-eating habits is growing fast amongst a portion of your population because your scoiety has failed them.

Señor Græd at February 12, 2004 01:37 PM [permalink]:

I only mentioned "patience" and I was looking for another word that escaped me then. Here: CIVILITY!

Señor Græd at February 12, 2004 01:47 PM [permalink]:

Addendum:

When I was younger I used to be naive enough to think whoever wears a spectacle (this was when I was one-digit years old!) or uses grandiloquent words or takes a pensive pose pensive or carries himself in a certain way and introduces himself as an "intellectual" (explicitly or tacitly) is worth my attention and respect. Not anymore. Life has taught me that the fact that someone has read a multitude of books and can speak "half a dozen languages" is not necessarily a person who can think. This truism may be the reason why I am no longer taking utterly stupid comments seriously.

Britney at February 12, 2004 01:53 PM [permalink]:

“you storm into every conversation with some offensive (you don't even see that) comments, and worse, expect everyone else to sign up to the way you eat your croissant.”

Whoman, perhaps she is doing what you just said to get some attention! Maybe, unlike what she claimed in her article, she is indeed obese and old and the only way for her to grab people’s attention, is to be offensive and provocative!
The number of comments that she posts here per day is really incredible and makes me think that again unlike what she claims that she is enjoying the life, actually she has nothing more exciting to do than BSing in this site!
Wessie, my advice to you is “Go get laid” :)

Wessie at February 12, 2004 01:55 PM [permalink]:
"When I said personal, I meant more personal than 9/11." I find very few things more personal than the death of people whom I care about. "That's why I don't give a hoot about debating with you as long as you are acting as an self-righteous (are you a religious fundamentalist?)." You claim to have read my posts. Had you done that, then you would know what my religious position is. You really are proving that you are stupid. (Poor thang; after all, you can't help that. You were born that way and chose to stay that way.) "You better look at your own backyard to see that the religion that is having such a huge impact on your croisant-eating habits is growing fast amongst a portion of your population because your scoiety has failed them." Right! That is why they want to come to the West by the MILLIONS. Islam is the "fastest growing" religion because Muslims use their women like brood mares. When one wears out they get another and another and another. People are leaving Islam in droves—even if they cannot say so because of death fatwas. Your arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance WhoMan. Why are you still in the West? LEAVE!!! Go where it is better. LOL =========== http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD66004 Former Dean of Islamic Law at University of Qatar: 'America Has Changed the World for the Better' Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, former dean of the Faculty of Islamic Law at the University of Qatar, wrote an article titled 'What Do We Demand From America?' in the London Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat. The following are excerpts from the article : [1] "Has the world become better two years after the September 11 disaster as a result of change in the American policy toward fighting terrorism within its own territories and as a result of using armed force in order to eliminate dictatorial regimes connected with terrorist activity? "Of course, there are those who think that the situation has become worse, and that America is using the war on terror and [the idea of] spreading democracy as a pretext for unrestrained hegemony, empire creation, and expansion in the world in disregard of international law or the principles of morality. The problem with this approach is that it sees half of the picture – the half-empty glass … and focuses only on the negative traits of America because of the widespread media distortion of [America's] image that prevails in our countries. "But what about the other half of the picture… America's positive deeds surpass its negative deeds… America has done many positive things and changed the world for the better. It is enough that it freed the world of many dictatorial regimes… Some claim that it did not succeed in establishing democracy in place of the regimes that it toppled, but in some cases it did succeed, and the most outstanding examples are in Germany and Japan… "Let us imagine the world if America had listened to the French and German logic saying: Give the murderers of the Serbs and the Arabs a chance for a diplomatic solution. Would Bosnia, Kuwait, and Iraq be liberated [today]…? "Let us describe the situation of the Arabs, and especially of Iraq, had America listened to the European council that said: Democracy is not suited to the Arabs, their culture is contrary to it. Leave the backward ones alone to consume each other… "See now how many countries are turning towards democracy. Even Afghanistan has a constitution. In Iraq, [they are drafting] a new con ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
JFTDMaster at February 12, 2004 02:02 PM [permalink]:

Wessie:
"Everything I have been saying all along. "
- sorry for being sarcastic again, but wow by posting this article are you actually saying an islamic professor is capable of thinking and being moderate? what a change of heart!

Can I ask for a favour? Can you please stop posting so many entire articles? A link and the most important paragraph should be enough, if necessary to prove a point. I've personaly read beforehand the majority of the articles you've posted, but it still makes discussions harder to follow..

WhoMan at February 12, 2004 02:07 PM [permalink]:

Senior Grad,

Now you might be accused of siding with your fellow "tribeman", and yet that you are doing it on a probably American network that we "stole".

I am sorry, but I can't find any better analogy than this: I once thought that reading books about faraway places and cultures and even doing some touristy things here and there is like masturbation as opposed to the real deal. But now I think it is even worse. Sometimes doing these things gives you a totally false impression about the realities. The way you make your observations is something that is not affected by the number of books one reads, and places one visits.

Wessie at February 12, 2004 02:18 PM [permalink]:

"To be honest, I haven't been able to read all the W-W exchange in the comments above (and I am not going to learn how to read fast, because I think that is quite a stupid idea. I haven't even read the mail entry: it was long and that goes beyond my attention span),"

That figures. I guess you have to save you limited brain cells, Senior. Soon you'll need them to get a real job. Life on easy street at the university is over. ;-)

=========

"Maybe, unlike what she claimed in her article, she is indeed obese and old . . .
The number of comments that she posts here per day is really incredible. . .Wessie, my advice to you is “Go get laid” :)

Oh, Britney. How do you know what is posted here unless you look at it? I love Muslim fantasies. ;-)


I am really, really "old" —and I am ugly too and extremely FAT—like most Americans. I can't get out of my chair I am so lazy because I eat chips all day. I have no teeth either. I live in a trailer and have a really, FAT, and ugly "boyfriend" who hasn't had a job in years. He is so fat that he can't even get it up. And—There are junk cars and mangy dogs all around. ROTFLMAO!!!!

Here is a picture of me in all my porky glory:

http://www.panix.com/~rmcgee/images/miss_piggy.jpg

Man, oh man, what a bunch. Never address the subject, just obfuscate.

This whole thread is full of BULLSHIT by the likes of you, because not one of you has the BALLS to address the subject or any of the substance. Typical.

Carry on.

Wessie


WhoMan at February 12, 2004 02:22 PM [permalink]:

OK, Wessie. It seems that speaking in a subtle way is just too much for your intelligence ... or lack of it. I meant African Americans.

Why would I have to leave from where I live? At least I have more in common with them than you do! Even in your home country I can argue I will find more people with opions closer to mine than your lunatic views. Don't pretend you know who I am and how I think, 'cuz you don't know anything about me.

P.S. When did I say I read your posts? I don't have plenty time on my hand to read all of your colourful opinions.

Wessie at February 12, 2004 02:30 PM [permalink]:

". . .sorry for being sarcastic again, but wow by posting this article are you actually saying an islamic professor is capable of thinking and being moderate? what a change of heart!. . ."

See, that is PRECISELY what I mean, JFTDMaster. You just want to twist things around, and you are clearly, deliberately being sarcastic. I have NOT had a change of heart. I have posted plenty of stuff by Muslim scholars who are on the other side of the fence.

That does not change the facts about Islam!

I post excepts from articles with the most important paragraphs, not whole articles, for the most part. Lots of people can't get to links. If you find it hard to follow then skip them.

===

". . . The way you make your observations is something that is not affected by the number of books one reads, and places one visits. . . "

What you have experienced, read, eaten, where you have visited and lived is incorporated into who you are and how you think. If you can think that is—some can't you know.

If you are a housewife/househusband you think a lot about vacuums and chips—and if you are a Persian prince or princess you only think of yourself. ;-)

Keep "thinking" LOL


WhoMan at February 12, 2004 02:41 PM [permalink]:

Whatever, Wessie.

JFTDMaster at February 12, 2004 02:56 PM [permalink]:

Wessie, you say muslims are incapable of thinking and being moderate, and then you post an example of a moderate-thinking islamic professor.. seriously, how is that supposed to make sense?

Tautologist at February 12, 2004 03:27 PM [permalink]:
To those educate people with advanced degrees: نـه هر کـه چهره برافروخت دلـبري داند نـه هر کـه آينـه سازد سکـندري داند نـه هر که طرف کله کج نهاد و تند نشست کـلاه داري و آيين سروري داند تو بـندگي چو گدايان به شرط مزد مکـن کـه دوسـت خود روش بـنده پروري داند غـلام هـمـت آن رند عافيت سوزم کـه در گداصـفـتي کيمياگري داند وفا و عـهد نـکو باشد ار بياموزي وگرنـه هر کـه تو بيني ستمـگري داند بـباخـتـم دل ديوانـه و ندانسـتـم کـه آدمي بـچـه‌اي شيوه پري داند هزار نکـتـه باريکـتر ز مو اين جاسـت نـه هر کـه سر بتراشد قـلـندري داند مدار نقـطـه بينـش ز خال توسـت مرا کـه قدر گوهر يک دانـه جوهري داند به قد و چهره ه ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Senior Grad at February 12, 2004 04:00 PM [permalink]:

Thank you, Tautologist. It was time.

Britney at February 12, 2004 04:01 PM [permalink]:

“Oh, Britney. How do you know what is posted here unless you look at it? I love Muslim fantasies. ;-) “

I’m thinking that you can’t even comprehend plain English or even worse, your brain is unable to follow a simple logical path!

I didn’t say that I actually read all your BS! I said from the number of your posts which can be simply counted by counting the number of your signatures in the end of them, I could see that your rate of posting BS is really high!:)

Also what made you think that I am a Muslim, just because I wrote here doesn’t make me a Muslim! If you still don’t get it, you yourself post BS here, does that make you one? For your information I am not a Muslim.
Anyway, sorry that your boyfriend can not get it up, but try it with your mailman that might work ;)
Britney

Senior Grad at February 12, 2004 04:28 PM [permalink]:

I for one apologize to Yaser for his post seems to have provided a battleground for a catfight.

Geez!

Senior Grad at February 12, 2004 04:35 PM [permalink]:

Britney (a.k.a. Wessie?!) has crossed the line and I predict that her comments will not stay on here. Wessie's long (the word "long" doesn't do justice, rerally) comments seem to serve little purpose, if any, than damaging a forum that was meant to be, and could in fact be, a healthy place for debate. WessLog was, IMO, an ingenious remedy, but for some reason it stopped operating.

Senior Grad at February 12, 2004 04:38 PM [permalink]:

Will she go away if we all just ignore her? Just wondering.

Senior Grad at February 12, 2004 04:51 PM [permalink]:

It's becoming increasingly clear that FToI editors, in trying to respect the fundamental principle of this forum, that is Freedom of speech, have unwittingly shown too much laxity in dealing with the W phenomenon. In trying to stik to this priniple, they once went out of their way to provide a separate home for the self-satsified moron behind all the trouble who kept coming back and saying basically the same thing over and over again in many different languages, collecting the material in line with her ideology from all over the internet and reproducing them as her comments without having a fraction of the thinking ability of the dumbest Iranian comment writer here.

Wessie at February 12, 2004 06:56 PM [permalink]:

"Wessie, you say muslims are incapable of thinking and being moderate, and then you post an example of a moderate-thinking islamic professor.. seriously, how is that supposed to make sense?"

No, JFTDMaster, I said that Islam is not innovative— that Muslims tend toward group think. I did not say that Muslims are "incapable of being moderate." I said that Islam is not reformable. That if a Muslim follows Islam as set down by Mohammed then he is a radical. You continually claim I said something I did not say.

I say Islam is the root of Islamic terror. If you disagree then fine.

---

Britney (a.k.a. Wessie?!) Sorry, I would not choose a silly name like Britney. It's not me!

-----

Now, Senior, you have posted many, many insults to me and called me names, but you are really on a roll today: " . . . you have shown in your comments unmistakable signs of a greatly unhappy and deeply troubled person. "

and this:

". . .self-satsified moron"

and this:

"collecting the material in line with her ideology from all over the internet and reproducing them as her comments without having a fraction of the thinking ability of the dumbest Iranian comment writer here."

Now, you have yet to post anything here that is on the subject. I have posted lots on the subject of the thread. Perhaps that is what bothers you?

I think you should have your own Mr. Google log, since you are ALWAYS posting off subject nonsense, that you have not even read, from googling—as you freely admit. You even post multiple posts with the same-off subject crap over and over again. I could pull out REAMS of your off-subject, insulting, name calling, bigoted posts. :-D

"Will she go away if we all just ignore her? Just wondering."

Will you? Will the mullahs? Will they go away if you ignore them? Will they stop supporting Islamic terror if you ignore them? Will they stop making their nuclear bombs if you ignore them?

-----------

Now, the thread subject and whether Iranians deserve the government they have—I would say again, based on the samples of the people here—yes! They do deserve what they have. Because, they never, ever address the subject of their problems. They just want to play games and blame others for their problems.

Same as on this site. ;-)

You are just bugged because I post a lot—here—in your personal little Iranian space where you usually get people who agree with your wrong-headed world view.

Go to the NY Times, lgf, Atlantic Monthly or any other U.S. site and post your BS there. They will REAM you!

Is this cool or what?

Undeclared Centrifuge Design Found in Iran

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-UN-Nuclear-Agency-Iran.html

tick, Tick, TICK

AliS in Wonderland at February 12, 2004 11:55 PM [permalink]:

Senior Grad
Regarding your comment about ignoring some comments I wanted to quote the Persian saying we have about remaining silent to some sayings but then I remembered that the English have a quote that serves the same purpose:

Silence is the most perfect expression of scorn.
George Bernard Shaw, Back to Methuselah (1921)

AliS in Wonderland at February 13, 2004 12:01 AM [permalink]:

Oh I forgot to add this to the previous comment although I do not approve of the way Wessie presents her ideas but in your last comment you also went too far in calling her a "self-satsified moron". Do you think even if somebody is a "self-satsified moron" calling him/her a "self-satsified moron" would serve any purpose?

AmericanWoman at February 13, 2004 01:32 AM [permalink]:

This site, which used to be great, has become a strange place. Even though I am not an Iranian Graduate Student, I humbly request the editors to enforce the comment rules.

Wessie at February 13, 2004 10:21 AM [permalink]:

Well, thanks Mr. Google. How's your dissertation defense? Better than your off subject one at this site, I hope.

---------

Now back to the subject of the thread.

Inshallah is the worst phrase in your world. It is responsible for your Islamic lack of freedom and personal responsibility. It responsible for Muslim indolence and apathy. It is responsible for Islamic violence.

God and even allah helps those who help themselves!

Wessie

WhoMan at February 13, 2004 02:18 PM [permalink]:

Folks,

The reason I took certain noises here seriously for a while was merely because I thought I was dealing with just a debater, but with weird mentality. But judging from the comments in this post and other posts it seems that there is a known history here. So may I raise some points that would I have in mind:
1- None of her comments, and even language per se make her eligible to be banned from your site.
2- Obvisouly she is not for debate here. She is an activist in her mind. But a genuine activist puts up her/his rants in her/his own site. She does dicuss things occasionally just to stay more in your site. She keeps pitching her thoughts as a crusade ... or maybe the continuation of the Crusade.
3- The fact that she uses your forum for her own end is just outrageous. Remember she is not after debating or having a discussion. What she does is apparently unsolicited.
3- In that sense I don't see any difference between her pitches and penis enlargement or Viagra advertisements that keep popping as comments in my blog.
4- I just block the IPs that spam comment my blog.

Just some thoughts.

Senior Grad at February 13, 2004 02:30 PM [permalink]:

AliS:

I'm not sure what Persian saying you're talking about. I know this one which seem to fit Wessie's situation:

BAR SIAH-DEL CHé SOOD KHAANDAN E VA'Z?
NARAVAD MIKH E AAHANIN DAR SANG. :-)

Senior Grad at February 13, 2004 02:50 PM [permalink]:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Hooman. Aside from whether one should be "banned" from writing here, I think the way this "website" is set up, it is *impossible* to ban anybody from writing comments permanently. The creators of FToI, I so believe, have trusted a certain level of civility on the part of the comment writers. When Wessie launched her "crusade", in order to respect their principal principle, Freedom, they came up with a great idea: her repetitious irrelevancies would be transferred to a domain dedicated to her, some sort of a RANT-NAMEH, but I suppose this was done manually, and after a while the editors simply gave up. Or maybe they changed their mind, who knows? Now, let's assume that somebody *can* in fact be banned from writing comments. I disagree with you in that I think the language one uses can be a legitimate reason for banning them from writing. Mr. Seradjeh took pains to come up with some sort of a theoretical framework in one of his recent posts, but to no avail.

JFTDMaster at February 13, 2004 04:00 PM [permalink]:

I haven't been reading and posting here for that long.. but how about everyone who posts regularily including Wessie agrees to try to debate things in a readable format, providing links to support a point instead of whole articles? If its clear that's what the readers and posters here want, I think she'll agree, I'll try to do the same, and so will other readers/posters, and that's that.

Vahid at February 13, 2004 08:22 PM [permalink]:

I think to have a balanced debate it is important, that people stop repeating themselves over and over, and keep their posts in number to a level that does not exceed the norm singinficantly. One big problem with Wessie is that, she dominates all the discussions that we have with her single idea, of "Let's vanish Islam", or "This is also related to being Moslem". In this post there is over 90 comments and 25 of them are Wessie's, WhoMan and JFTKMaster are next with about 12 and 10 comments, and mostly spent their comments answering Wessie's. Also the avarage Wessie comment is 3 times longer than others! So that makes more than 50% of the comments here. Even if she had a more tolerent language and more ideas to talk about, this begins to become annoying.
I encourage Wessie, to be a bit patient, and write when she has something new, and let other people discuss the main entree.
Wessie, why don't you launch your own website and talk constantly about your ideas, and meanwhile leave some reasonable amount of comments here for us. As you can see almost all the commenter's here (iranian, non iranian, moslem and non moslem) do not agree with you. If you want to save the world you should try to find some followers. I do not know anyone in my Canadian, American, and European friends that agree with you. So get out and reach people of America and world with your interesting ideas. Maybe you could save the world.
I wish you the best.

An Iranian Student (AIS) at February 14, 2004 01:09 AM [permalink]:

Here is a fantastic article about the US, why it is such a great country and exactly what is so great about it.
Democratic Realism

Read especially the part about 'Isolationism'. Since we are under a new wave of Wessie-attack now, it might do us all good to see what it is that Wessie is a caricature of.

Wessie at February 14, 2004 07:03 AM [permalink]:
Vahid, Anyone is free to comment as much as they like. But, as has been noted, many of you simply make comments about my comments and nothing more substantial. As to whether you agree with me, I don't expect that. I figures you would not. Why should a nihilistic, Persian or ME prince agree with a Western realist? Most Americans do however, agree with me. Note the support for waging a war against Islamic terror. Go to other websites from the major newspapers and magazines to small sites such as this one, and you will see that Americans and even Europeans agree with my position that Islam is a danger to humanity and civilization as we know it. REAMS of articles are written constantly about the militant Islamic threat. REAMS! They just have not yet figured out how to best contain Islam. But, additional terror attacks will surely bring enlightenment. --- AIS—thanks for your insult. Even you are typical. You demand civility but spew insults. Oh well, what can one expect given your heritage of denial and blame. You got the article from an LGF link. I trust that you read some of the over-the-tip comments there. By their standards my positions are rather benign. Many there want to nuke Mecca not isolate it. I don't believe in isolationism. But, Islam could use a dose of standing in the corner for a while. I don't want to isolate the U.S. from humanity. I want to isolate Islam from civilization. However, it is already doing that itself—with your help. Hey, like I said. It's NOT our problem—it's YOUR problem! The war on terror as it is currently being conducted is not sustainable. Just wait and see the changes that will come about from the U.S. government regardless of whether Bush is reelected or not. As Krauthammer states: "we are unlike Rome, unlike Britain and France and Spain and the other classical empires of modern times, in that we do not hunger for territory. . . . . . .In October 1962, during the Cuban Missile crisis, we came to the edge of the abyss. Then, accompanied by our equally shaken adversary, we both deliberately drew back. On September 11, 2001, we saw the face of Armageddon again, but this time with an enemy that does not draw back. This time the enemy knows no reason. Were that the only difference between now and then, our situation would be hopeless. But there is a second difference between now and then: the uniqueness of our power, unrivaled, not just today but ever. That evens the odds. The rationality of the enemy is something beyond our control. But the use of our power is within our control. And if that power is used wisely, constrained not by illusions and fictions but only by the limits of our mission--which is to bring a modicum of freedom as an antidote to nihilism--we can, and will, prevail." --- It would really, really be smart if some of you Persian princes here would work on getting rid of your nihilism and helping to free your nations from the yoke of ignorant Islam! Because you are the elite of your cultures. The great unwashed of your nations are not going to save humanity from the Monster that YOU have created. See to it! Or the wise use, and stark reality of American power will surely come down on your heads like a ton of bricks. And not only will Americans agree to do it—but the whole world will get in line to take a shot at barbarous, backward Islam and the irresponsible people who make it tick. As Putin recently said, after yet another barbarous, Islamic terror attack: "We don't n ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 14, 2004 08:14 AM [permalink]:

Now, here is my favorite, world class historian, with a very large readership and following, who has a base in reality. Oh, there are so many "crazy," rude Americans— not nearly as sophisticated or "polite" as those Persian princes. But, they sure know reality from fantasy. ;-)

Just Imagine...
Trying to believe in the make-believe world of the present age.

http://nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200402130844.asp

JFTDMaster at February 15, 2004 09:21 PM [permalink]:

Wessie, I'm assuming practically everyone who posts here is against islamist terrorism. Majority of Iranian people are already against the government and against terrorism. So what is the point? If you come up with organization and a plan of action, that would be more "productive"..

Wessie at February 15, 2004 10:22 PM [permalink]:

The POINT, JFTDMaster, is to get these Persian princes and princesses off their nihilistic derrieres and do something about a situation for which they are fully responsible. It is not up to us Westerners to "make a plan." It is up to Muslims! (It is, after all, highly unproductive to "preach to the choir" at a Western site— wouldn't you say? )

The princes at FToI may be "against" Islamic terrorism—but, for the most part—they live the decadent life of the West, while whining and complaining about their visa status and the lack of "perfect" democracy in Iran.

Well, I say, put up or shut up! I am tired of hearing whining, defeatist MEsterners complain that the world owes them a living—and I am even more tired of Western tax dollars paying for the corrupt decadence of theocratic Islamic states, while their indolent populations blame their self-inflicted misery on the West. Let Muslims and MEsterners get off their more than ample posteriors and work to free the world of the scourge of Islam!

BTW—Why are you here? What sort of plan do you have to improve the situation?

Wessie


WhoMan at February 16, 2004 10:11 AM [permalink]:

I couldn't resist this.

"BTW—Why are you here?"
For the same reason your grandparents or parents came here.

Wessie at February 16, 2004 11:29 AM [permalink]:

WhoaMan! Shows his/her incomparable reading comprehension— once again.

"Here" means at this FToI website.

DUH!

Why are you in Canada given that you have such disdain for the Western system?

How is it that you have so much time to post here and keep up a blog. You say you are not a student. Don't you have a job, WhoaMan? You wouldn't be on the Western dole, now would you? ;-)

WhoMan at February 16, 2004 01:16 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,
How long did it take for you to tweak what you origionally had in mind to something else to skip an embarrassent?

I am a Persian prince. I have an oilfield in my backyard back in Iran. My daddy and mommy send me money (my daddy actually since my mom is busy milking the goat). But why would I spend it when I can use or absue the western dole, huh? So I am sitting home, doing nothing but collecting western welfare money and bitching about their system.Typical, you'd say. Why am I doing "here"? I am "here" to collect piece of your daily dose of thoughtful suggestions on how to get my life straight too. Then after I bitch about you too.

Wessie at February 16, 2004 08:30 PM [permalink]:

WhoaMan! Get back to us when you grow up—and when you improve your English. ;-)

" Why am I doing "here"? I am "here" to collect piece of your daily dose of thoughtful suggestions on how to get my life straight too. Then after I bitch about you too."

PATHETIC!

WhoMan at February 16, 2004 09:12 PM [permalink]:

I am not a typist, but type fast and use backspace a lot, so many words that also should be removed, are left. You would think a second look at what I write will do it. Yes perhaps it will. But then I think to myself: "a 2nd look on comment for Wessie? eh, nah! Even the comment is too much to begin with."

So that's how my comments for you comes with a lot of mistakes and typos.

OK, I think I have tried the patiece of webmasters here too much.
God bey Wesiy, see u when eye am grown op.

Wessie at February 17, 2004 12:02 PM [permalink]:

More irrelevant drivel from the — WhoaMan!

Will s/he EVER write anything of substance? ;-)

Past performance is highly predictive of future performance. Whoaman, like Islam, won't get anywhere until EVERYTHING is changed.

Davood at February 18, 2004 12:55 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,
I'm glad your comments about hundreds of militiants in Tehran is quoted from Jerusalem Post. One can expect what would Isarel and Jerusalm Post would say about Iran, Islam, and Arabs.
Also,I'm glad that you are very well-educated, and well rounded person. Here in the US, when some people do not see the world, they deny it. But, when they see something, that's it.
For me there are some questions:
-Why good, nice chritians Americans throw and waste their Good Money on muslim Middle Eastern countries, but HELP Isarel, and it's not wasting.
-While most earopean countries admit that Israel with the support of US is one the main reason in instability in the ME, US supports it no matter what.
-Why Kind, peace loving americans have been supporting Isarel in destroying palestinian lives and killing them.
-Wessie, why does US suuport Isarel? are paletinians terrosrist? Isarel occupied their land, deprive them of theie very existence, and yet, you guys support them. When they hopelessly try to fight for their basic rights, they are named terrorists. Those suicidbombers are in existence for less than 3 years, how about Isarel that suppress them for than 50 years. (I dont approve of Suicide bombing) I hope you look it fairly. How about jwish coumpounds in Gaza strip that the UN rebuked Isarel for that? Is the UN and Earpoeans terrorist that they rebuke Israel's behavior. Is the whole world blame everything on the US. Please read the interview with Noam Chomsky, and see some different perpective from your people. As you might know, Chomsky is a Jew, not a backward Muslim.
I might be a little bit over simplification to see al muslim worlds as backwards. India and Indonesia are two countries with highest muslim population. India is very advanced in some industries, and Indonesia is ver progressing. Maybe you want to take a look at Malaysia.
My point is that one nation is not the best and others the worst. This view of black and white does refer to an backward line of thinking, those fanatics who see themselves as an absolute right and othersas wrong. The point is that, in this argument, religion may be replaced by nationality or a region (America and west).
I dont mean no offense to people in America to whom I owe alot. However, I believe we are all inter-related. The problem is when one side try to consider itself as an absolute right right.

Davood

Davood at February 18, 2004 01:09 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,

I am glad you are so proud of Westerners money. Please read Michael Moor's "Dude! Where is my country" to the giant investmnet of Saudi's in the US and how Pres Bush allow a private jet to collect Bin Laden's family to get out of the US right after septembet 11.
The fact is that,for your ego, all your huge industry and Glory in nothing without one day of sanction of Oil from backward Arabs and Muslims.(look at the Gulf war). OPEC is the largest financial instituition in the world, still.
Ask Pres Bush why he is wasting all his credit, US economy, and Trans-Atlantic relationship with his Allies to invade Iraq. At leat, you may listen to some democrates, or independent thinkers in the US like Noam Chomsky, and his interview in 2001, that said the US is planning secure and control (occupy!) energy sources in the World. I hope all the US politicians think like you, leave the ME alone. However, as NEW-Cons like From and Laden beilieve otherwise, the NEw Imperilistic Power need new markets, secured dources of Enrgey, free labor (outsourcing)to survive, or who can accomodate your American Haven. I wish you guys leave the rest of the world alone, but you can't. you know why, you Ego maybe answer that...
The Game is more complicated. and dont bother yourself with dark side of the world. You need them.

Wessie at February 18, 2004 02:52 PM [permalink]:

Davood:

I am very busy and under some deadlines at the moment. I shall answer in depth later particularly about Israel.

However, a few thoughts: As you know I am all for "leaving Muslims alone—and to their own devices." I just wish they would do the same. I don't want them in the West if they don't want to assimilate and respect Western customs and laws. If Muslims DEMAND special privileges then they should stay in Islamia!

If they want to force the world to become Muslim, as mandated in the Qur'an, then I would say we must "interfere" and stop that! I DON'T want to become a Muslim or any other religion—unless that is my choice. I would fight to the death any religion that tries to force itself on me or my nation!

As for Chomsky—he has very little respect in the West and is considered a fringe-radical—a real screwball. The only people who look up to him are losers, Muslims and anarchists. Many people in the US consider Chomsky a traitor.

I am proud of more than "Westerners' money"—I am proud of our civilization and accomplishments, from art, literature and music to technology and medicine. Muslims have done NOTHING for over 500 years and very little in over the last 1000 years. It's time they did something for themselves instead of complain about the West. Jealousy will get them more of the same!

I don't have a black and white view of anything. But, Islamic extremists do, as do many "moderate" Muslims: America "bad"— Islam "good."

To that I say look at what Islam has accomplished in the last 1000 years and look at what the West has accomplished. The proof is there in the way the whole world lives or wants to live. No one wants to move to any Islamic state, no one wants to live like backward Muslims in the 7th century or at best the middle ages in poverty and ignorance. They all want to come to the West and live the "American Dream" or at least the "European Dream."

Wessie

Davood at February 18, 2004 04:23 PM [permalink]:
"I don't want them in the West if they don't want to assimilate and respect Western customs and laws. If Muslims DEMAND special privileges then they should stay in Islamia! " I'm glad you point this out. However, I'm wondering whose Military forces reside in Saudi Arabia(holy land of Muslims), even after Gulf War, and Persian Gulf? and Who invades Iraq without enough justification. Who supported Iraq against Iran? you may admit that Iraq, as an backward muslim country, did not possess enough knowledge or technology to make WMD and chemicial /biological weapons. Could you please tell me if Arabs or Iranians provide him with those or Western Civilization with its great outcomes(including Atomic Bombs, chemical and Biological weapons). As if I remeber right, there were not Muslim terrorists who initiated World War I and II, bombed Hiroshima and Nakazaki in Japan, right? Well, let count the outcomes more. Could please let us know how many people were killed as a result World War I,II, and atomic bobs in Hiroshima and Nakazaki, and then you may compare them with people got killed by muslim terrosrists. Then, we may see whose outcomes are greater. Or, we may look at Afghanistan or Iraq, and civilian casualties caused by American bombs. It's not the outcome anubody,I guess, truly would like to be proud of.More than half of weapons of the World is provided by the US. I am truly thrilled if anybody could name those great outcomes and be proud of them. Wessie, I truly appreciate West and its outcomes, however, I would like to let you know that we may weigh both good and bad outcomes . "If they want to force the world to become Muslim, as mandated in the Qur'an, then I would say we must "interfere" and stop that! I DON'T want to become a Muslim or any other religion—unless that is my choice. I would fight to the death any religion that tries to force itself on me or my nation!" I am wondering if you live in the US or not? I have lived here for more than two years. So far, I have been offended by alot of ordinary people trying to convert(force) me to Christianity, many of them directly scold at me. On campus, they distributed so many brochures conveying Muslims are not believers and they are in the dark side. I'm sure you are a well traveled guy. But, I have never been to any muslim country or heard of any westerner who told me the same story. Like you, I belive we should be free. Even in Iran, they don't "force" you to be Muslim. Any ideology,call it Islam or white,west, or whatever supremacy,adopted by any sort of government,could harm the very idea of freedom, and democracy. Freedom is not the concept invented by the West. Every human is borned and nurtured with it. "As for Chomsky—he has very little respect in the West and is considered a fringe-radical—a real screwball. The only people who look up to him are losers, Muslims and anarchists. Many people in the US consider Chomsky a traitor" About Chomsky, I truly do not dare to judge people like that, calling them traitors (But,some countrymen in Iran do,no offense). This rhetoric reminds me of fanatics, either religous or non-religious. I mean no offense, but calling anybody who criticizes westsand the US traitor-or nowadays ,non-patriotic- belongs to the rhetoric of people who can not tolerate their opponents or others' views. I truly feel uncomfortable calling "people who look up to him" losers or muslims, again not a rhetoric from "well-educated", open-minded person. At least, I could refer ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 19, 2004 02:02 AM [permalink]:
Davood, your rhetoric is typical of MEsterners who live in the West but really don't believe in the concepts. I have used short, simple sentences that I hope will help you to understand my response. "As if I remeber right, there were not Muslim terrorists who initiated World War I and II, bombed Hiroshima and Nakazaki in Japan, right?" The U.S. SAVED the world twice in the last century it did NOT start the wars. Your BS comments about us bombing Japan with the Atom bombs are just that BS! Japan attacked the U.S. When you attack America you have to pay. The Japanese almost overran half of Asia. They committed some of the worst atrocities ever known to mankind. Ask the Chinese or the Koreans what they think of the Japanese. The Japanese don't hate the U.S. for bombing them—because they started it. America helped Japan become one of the most successful and civilized countries on earth. Ditto for Germany! Islam came out of Arabia with the sword from the time that Muhammad was driven to Medina. Islam is VIOLENT in its scriptures. You might be offended by Christians on campus trying to convert you. But, they are not strapping on bomb-belts wanting to murder you to get to heaven. Muslims do that. Christian preachers are not screeching from their pulpits that Islam is the "Great Satan" and that all Muslims should be killed. Muslim clerics do that. Islamic terrorism has existed since the time of its foundation. There are hundreds of passages in the Qur'an and the hadith mandating for Muslims to murder the "unbelievers." You claim that even in Iran "they don't "force" you to be Muslim." REALLY! You want to tell me that anyone can live in Iran and practice their religion or no religion? If I go to Iran that I, as a Westerner, don't have to wear that damned veil? You want to tell me that they don't beat women (or worse) who don't wear the veil? You want to tell me that the whole country is not run by a bunch of religious fanatics who run houses of prostitution and keep the Iranian people under the thumb of Islam? Please, please, your BS is a bit much. As for the military forces in Saudi Arabia. They asked the U.S. to come there because Iraq invaded Kuwait. Now we have left. Get over it! Muslims owe us—and NOT vice versa! And the Saudis breed, support and export Islamic terror to the tune of Billions of dollars—worldwide! Yes, the U.S. sided with Iraq against Iran. And why not? Iran was and still is an ENEMY of the U.S. Iran too supports Islamic terrorism worldwide. They took our people hostage. Saddam, at the time, was a better bet than the mullahs of Iran. The mullahs are trying to build an atom bomb. I think they will use it. Don't you? Afghanistan was attacked because the Muslims who came from there attacked the U.S. on 9/11. The whole country of Afghanistan was a terror training camp. They destroyed the heritage of humanity by destroying the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Don't you think it is a good thing that the Taliban is gone? Iraq was attacked because of Saddam Hussein having sponsored Islamic terrorism. He used to pay $25,000.- each for a Palestinian suicide jihadi. He gassed his own people. I disagreed with attacking Iraq without allies, but it is good that Saddam is gone. The Iraqi people are glad Saddam is gone. And they don't appreciate other Muslims who did not help them. Saddam MURDERED 2 million Iraqis. Why is it that Muslims did not help their "brothers" when Saddam was torturing, raping and murdering them? No Muslims ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 19, 2004 03:33 AM [permalink]:

"What we, as Arabs, should truly feel humiliated about are the prevailing political and social conditions in the Arab world — especially in Iraq — which allowed someone such as Saddam Hussein to . . . assume the presidency. We should feel humiliated that Saddam was able . . . to single-handedly initiate a number of catastrophic policies that transformed Iraq, relatively rich in natural, human and financial resources, into the poorest, most debt-ridden country in the Arab world, not to mention the hundreds of thousands killed and displaced. We should feel humiliated that some of our intellectuals, supposedly the representatives of our nations' consciences and the defenders of their liberty and dignity, not only dealt with Saddam, but also supported him. . . . The Arabs should have been the ones to bring down Saddam, in defense of their own dignity and their own true interests."

Osama al-Ghazali Harb, Al Siyassa Al Dawliya

---

Exactly what I have been saying for years! Where were the Arabs? Where were the Muslims?

Wessie

Davood at February 19, 2004 12:09 PM [permalink]:

Wessie,
I am glad for your response. Again, you judge like your other couterparts in the US do, Rednecks,bigots or maybe (racist?) and others.(I use your own judgment and rhetoric). I have never claimed that I have got any concepts from your wonderful civilization. You assume(like bigots do) everybody calims he/she has got some west concepts!?
You are so wonderfull at "spinning" the topic. When it comes to west, you run away to the US, and then go bakc to the west. I'm so glad you implied that you have never been to Iran. And yet, you can judge them.
At this point, I think everybody knows how you think.
I wish you the best of luck for you in getting rid of uncivilized parts of the wrold, and some parts of West(Eauropeans who support Palestinians). Now, Bush Administration is negotiating with Mullas,whom you consider terrosrists, to help them satbilize Iraq(no negotiation with terrorists, hypocrisy!).
It's truly sad how other parts of world(civilized and uncivilized are stupid, right?) do not LIKE American Foregin Policy (Look at eauro Polls regarding the US).Oh! I know they dont deserve American generosity.
However, I am not like you to streotype west or Americns, my dear Open-minded, well educated friend. I belive that there are some people, not like you, who know humanity and honesty, trying to be more responsible about what they have done, they do, and they will do. They try to slove the problems, not "eliminate" the problems.
An Finally, "Fear", is the worst thing for a person. Overcome your fear, and you'll see different things...
I think, people have heard enough about this. I, humbly declare you as winner in this argument, if you like. Again, wish you the best in overcoming world problems. But, it's harder to overcome unsecurity and fear...

Davood-A Person who at least live in the US, and did not grasp alot of concepts, But but Wessie knows Davood better than himself!

Davood

Wessie at February 19, 2004 12:50 PM [permalink]:
Amazing! You call me a redneck, bigot, racist because I object to Islamic terrorism. Hey, knock yourself out, Davood. I have an aversion to innocent people being killed by rabid religious wackos who want to take us all back to the 7th century via anarchy. I have never claimed that I have got any concepts from your wonderful civilization. That is very clear. YOU HAVE NOT gotten any concepts because you continue to make excuses for your failed societies. You are so wonderfull at "spinning" the topic. LOL not nearly as good as Muslims claiming credit for everything, yet having done nothing but trying to subject the world to violent Islam. When it comes to west, you run away to the US, and then go bakc to the west. Aha, so why have you "run away" to the West? Why don't you stay wherever the heck it is better, Davood? I'm so glad you implied that you have never been to Iran. And yet, you can judge them. Yes, indeed, I and every other human being on the planet can judge those who sponsor Islamic terrorism. We can all count the bodies! At this point, I think everybody knows how you think. Everybody knows how you DON'T think! You only make false claims about "Islamic civilization." I wish you the best of luck for you in getting rid of uncivilized parts of the wrold, and some parts of West(Eauropeans who support Palestinians). The Europeans are already getting rid of the problem themselves. They are DEPORTING Islamists! Now, Bush Administration is negotiating with Mullas,whom you consider terrosrists, to help them satbilize Iraq(no negotiation with terrorists, hypocrisy!). Yeah, yeah, just as hypocritical as Iranians constantly wanting to come to the U.S. and asking for our help when they have a disaster. Why don't you stay in Iran so you don't have to deal with the "Great Satan"? It's truly sad how other parts of world(civilized and uncivilized are stupid, right?) do not LIKE American Foregin Policy (Look at eauro Polls regarding the US). You are ignoring that the WHOLE WORLD is moving against Islamic terrorism. Ask the Indians how they feel about it; ask in Bali, ask in Thailand, in Indonesia, in France, in Denmark, in Germany, in Spain, in Turkey, etc. Always ignoring the truth will not make that truth go away. Muslims will become the pariahs of the world if they don't stop Islamic terror! Oh! I know they dont deserve American generosity. The Euros can now pay for their own defense. That would be money better spent than supporting Palestinian terror! However, I am not like you to streotype west or Americns, my dear Open-minded, well educated friend. First, I am NOT YOUR FRIEND! Second, I am open minded. I just don't like Islamic terrorism. You are the bigot and a hypocrite to boot. You take from America but you give nothing back and have the nerve to criticize us with impunity. You are in the West. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. My tax dollars support your being here! I belive that there are some people, not like you, who know humanity and honesty, trying to be more responsible about what they have done, they do, and they will do. They try to slove the problems, not "eliminate" the problems. Like I said, the U.S. has done MORE than ANY OTHER NATION in history to help humanity. If you don't recognize that then you should go to whatever country you feel does a better job. An Finally, "Fear", is the worst thing for a person. Overcome your fear, and you'll see different things... I have no "fear"! I ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
An Iranian Student (AIS) at February 20, 2004 02:22 AM [permalink]:

Good article:
Iran: The Virus Must Be Stopped

AmericanWoman at February 20, 2004 02:55 AM [permalink]:
AIS First of all, I have to assure you that I love livin' in the USA. Of course, a case could be made that I don't know any better. Still, for all its greatness, there is a danger in complacency. One of the great things about the US is that anyone can complain their head off, and depending on how many people they can get to agree with them, the system can be adjusted to suit a little better. Secondly, you aupplauded the American penchant to rally 'round the Flag and march bravely off to war when confronted by " ...the larger existential enemy that poses a global, mortal threat to freedom." Hmmm, well yes. I'm not sure what an existential enemy is, one that lives in the present? And as far as freedoms go, that is really kind of a vague term. After all, just about the most famous thing about the Facists in Italy is that they kept the trains running on time, so people were freer to travel and conduct business, get supplies. When Hitler was first rising to power in Germany, the majority of citizens became free from the crushing oppression of being economically gutted by the plundering victors of WWI. I believe the plan was to kick all carpet-bagging foreigners out, Germans for Germany, put all the best GERMAN minds together in collectives working for the greater glory, blah, blah, blah. I, myself, drove a Volkswagon all though graduate school, which gave me the freedom of not having to carry groceries home by foot. Thanks, Nazis. But I don't want to quibble. I do want to point out that America was very late getting into that war WWII, and early on, the majority of Americans,(big Irish-German population in those days, both the traditional enemies of England) were pro-German. Socialism, and even Communism were what the smart people were touting. A big reason we entered the War was the attack on Pearl Harbour by Japan. They pretty much wiped out the whole American Naval fleet in that one raid, leaving us vulnerable to Imperialist assholes everywhere. Of course, it wasn't called a "World War" for nothing. As Machiavelli teaches us, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," and Japan was also fighting Russia at the time. Plus, we did have those treaties with the League of Nations. So that was how we got in, but of course, on the level of the individual soldier, it certainly was about duty, honour, country, freedom and a little bit about getting off the farm and out into the wide, wide world. I don't want to hog the bandwidth, so I'll try to be brief in addressing the other points you raised: 3) Arab-Islamic totalitarianism isn't really any scarier than any other kind of totalitarianism, which Americans have somehow managed to tolerate fairly well, i.e. Soviet Communism, whatever is going on in Syria, dictatorships in most of the Banana Republics in South America, Cambodia, etc. A little more unsettling is the rule of the Shining Path in Columbia, the whole Warlord thing, which would include old Yaser Arafat, and of course, anyone with WMD who won't play ball. We don't really know how to deal with those people at this point. 4) I haven't got a thing against vested interests. Often, they are my own. I want gas in my car every day. I just like to stay with reality as much as possible. Carlos Casteneda advises looking into to the shadows to see the whole picture, don't be distracted and dazzled by what's in the spotlight, if you look away from front and center, sometimes you can see the strings being pulled, sets being raised an ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Didier Clabaut at February 20, 2004 06:37 AM [permalink]:

Democracy does not make the perfect society, because people sometimes make wrong choices, and the candidates don't always tell you the full truth.

But it is still the best way to ensure individual freedom and cooperation.

I think a law based on islamic principles will be any better, worse or different than the western type of law. Our laws derive greatly from the romans and christians, but were modified and revised numerous times.

A separation between religion and state is very important, because there is not a single religion where it's practitioners 100% agree on how to live as a good muslim, christian, hindu, ... We are and remain in the very first place human beings, and we all have to live our lives here together, no matter what.

I always wondered why Mohammed, your prophet, went on so well with christians and jews (I've read he fled to Medina and there became the towns leader?), and today people die because of some minor differences in their way of thinking.

About the US: It is very true that the US saved the world a couple of times, but with todays diplomatics, the first world war wouldn't have happened. We shouldn't push other governments to evolve in years to what we have become in centuries. Our economic embargos have only fed the anger of people, so it's not fair to point at a religion for today's problems. We should all start taking lessons from the mistakes of the past, instead of repeating them.

An Iranian Student (AIS) at February 22, 2004 03:32 AM [permalink]:

American Woman,

You can ponder on philosophical meanings of the word 'Freedom' all you want, but really it is very simple and you don't need political scientists with 'immanence' and 'transcendence' to see it as it is.
My dear AW, there is a real difference between being choked by a rope around your neck and not being choked by a rope around your neck, there is a difference between having bullets of an execution squad enter your body and not having bullets of an execution squad enter your body. There is a difference between being torn apart while still alive for apostacy and not being torn alive while still alive for apostacy. There is a difference between being stoned for adultery and not being stoned for adultery. Between having your eyeballs removed, you right hand and left foot cut out and not having your eyeballs removed and your right hand and left foot cut out. There is a difference between having to make fake confessions in front of camera when your family members are threatened by rape and slaughter and not having to make a fake confession in front of camera because your family members are threatened by rape and slaughter. There is...
OK?

I'm happy that you at least have a clear idea of the state of 'morality' among the peace-protesters back then (and today?)

PS. an existential enemy is an enemy that threatens you or your society's very existence. (Or so I believe)

AmericanWoman at February 22, 2004 10:53 PM [permalink]:

I take your point. Still, can't quite see that war is the solution to ending violent brutality and abuses of power. The Democratic Realism article seems to assume that the US, as the most powerful military entity in the game, should use that military force to deal with issues in other countries, like human rights violations. Somehow, I can't quite see that. It's like curing the pain of a stubbed toe by breaking an arm.
The article seems to suggest that the US should assume the role of World Policeman, justified by our supposed lack of interest in "taking" property, and our high-minded ideals of freedom and justice for all.
Well, as tiresom as it might be for you, I have to go back to Vietnam. One of the things about that situation is that while it was happening, the actual word "War" was never used. It was known as a "Police Action." We were just there to help out with weapons and consulting. Then troops. Then lots of troops. Then the Tet offensive. I very well remember the news footage of helicopters evacuating the civilian ex-pats with helicopters in 1975, during operation "Peace with Honor." Around the edges of the camera shots were crowds of Vietnamese people yelling, waving, holding up babies, begging the foreigners to take them. Anyway.
By the way, Spalding Gray made a movie called the Killing Fields about his experiences, and how he went back afterwards to rescue his translator. There is another film, "The Quiet American" made recently, and based on a book written in the 50's by Graham Greene. If you see those films, you may get some of the picture. And there is always "Deer Hunter," which illustrates the loss of innocence, and pretty much sums up the experience for a lot of Americans.
Be that as it may, I am not arguing with you, nor the writer of the article. I'm just saying there might be a little more to it. Like, the idea that the Worlds Policeman can come in and eliminate all barriers to Iran becoming a democracy. Isn't Democracy, by definition, government for the people, by the people. Don't they have to do it themselves? Otherwise, you just switch oppressors. It's hard enough for us to put up with the Bush Dynasty -- I mean administration. I'm not sure democracy is the kind of thing you can give someone. Although it will be interesting to see what happens in Iraq, because it looks like that is exactly what they are trying to do. In the best of all possible worlds, I will stand corrected and humbly beg your pardon. Inshallah!

AIS at February 23, 2004 10:19 AM [permalink]:
American Woman, Nobody in their right mind can believe that "the Worlds Policeman can come in and eliminate all barriers to Iran becoming a democracy." Who said such a thing?! Democracy is an ever evolving process that has to be undertaken by the people of a country. Who is doubting that? The point is something else completely. The US can help dispose of these mullahs and help us to establish a basis upon which that contiuous growth can take place and give fruit. the point is NOT that the US should or can make another country a democracy. The point is that without US help it is extremely difficult or even impossible to make all the endavours for change and improvement to bare fruit. You think there has not been or today there is not struggle by Iranians? Iran had a constitutional revolution a century ago! There is more than 100 years of political struggle in recent history of Iran. Didn't you see the crushed uprisings? Who did that? Since the revolution thousands have been executed, why if they were just partying? more than 300 or 400 heads of oppositions were assasintaed (the assasines, if arrested, were most of the time secretly given to the regime by those European countries(the big exception was the Mikonos trial in Germany...Europe is a wastelnad of hypocracy and if it continues like this, will be going down fast) why did the mullahs take the trouble if they didn't feel threatened? The point is that all of this hasn't given results. We need help. The gap between a 3rd world country with religious backward section always having had the upperhand and the developed world of 21 century is not surmountable without a helping hand. The mullahs in Iran enjoy the power of a 1000 year old instituion. Iran has had millennia of dictatorship and religious tyranny. The indigenous progressive forces by themselves do not have this institutional power of their opponents. (And what they had managed was ravaged by the savage left Communist indoctrination since the end of WWII) The question is not that America can make us democratic, the question is that with these mullahs in power Iran can NEVER be democratic or progressive. And these mullahs are too brutal and hidden alliences and briberies of international forces with the oil and other resources, e including the geo-political significance of Iran, makes it almost impossible for them to be thrown out by internal struggles alone. Why shouldn't it neurilize what the Europeans etc. are doing with all the deals behind closed doors? Why shouldn't the US use its power to help us get rid of these animals? What comes after that could be debatable, but thet fact that mullah and democracy cannot coexist is certain. Establishing true democracy in Iran will take a long time. Many cultural traits have to be changed. For that the country needs stability. The relgious fundamentalists have historical institutions. The US has and can help establish pro-democtaric institutions. Why is it wrong to think about a US backed pro-democracy and progressive IRANIAN government to defeat , in the long run, the backwardness and succeed in changing the culture? Iraq has already given us examples. Up to now it has been only the power of the US that has stopped the clergy in Najaf in gaining power. Sistani has been calling for sham elections, similar to that of his colleagues over the border for some time now. It would have won over if it weren't for the Americans. (Let alone the almost certain bloody civil war that would h ["Toooo long!" editors say, "Here: click to read the whole thing!"]
Wessie at February 23, 2004 01:01 PM [permalink]:

". . . Why shouldn't the US use its power to help us get rid of these animals? . . ."

Because the U.S. will be damned for it by all Muslim nations. And we are TIRED of helping or trying to and then being condemned for it. It is our treasure being spent and our children dying for people who don't really want democracy and who wouldn't know how to sustain one once they have it.

We backed Chalabi and the "democracy" advocates in Iraq and they lied to us. Now the Islamic jihadis are coming out of the woodwork like cockroaches. It will be a miracle if there is not civil, religious war in Iraq once the U.S. leaves—and we will leave—soon!

Regardless of who wins this election, I doubt that the U.S. is up for "rescuing" any nation again any time soon. . . particularly an Islamic nation. The American public wont' go for it.

Do you really believe that Iran could sustain a democracy? I don't! Not with what one reads on these Iranian websites where even the most educated among Iranians have bizarre ideas of democracy such as "Immanence and Transcendence."

Nope, I agree with AW, democracy must come from the people—that won't happen anytime soon in Iran or any other Islamic nation. There are too many nations that need "fixing" in the world. Even the U.S. is not rich enough for that. We have our own problems that need fixing.

No thanks!


Mia at February 23, 2004 03:08 PM [permalink]:

Wessie, as a westerner, I feel disgusted by your thoughtless efforts in rhetoric against the "others". If anyone wants to judge me by your behavior, as you seem to be doing for the people of the Middle East, I'd remind them of my semitic origin as a jew.

As a jew, I can only refer you to some of the writings of Ellie Wiesel, esp. the Night trilogy.

As a feminist, I see you as mainstream.

I wish you good luck in becoming a normal person.

Wessie at February 23, 2004 05:52 PM [permalink]:

HEY Posting Police! You see, yet another off subject ad hominem attack just because—why?

Nothing like yet another insult from a "normal" person and a feminist to boot. But, I am sure that your off subject attack on me will not be deleted just because it is an attack on me, Mia.

I have never felt the need to be a feminist because I am a human being with equal rights.

My efforts are very thoughtful. Who are you, anyway to attack me, Mia? Have you posted anything thoughtful as a "semite"? What is the point of our pointing out that you are a Jew? Are you a Jew for Islamic terror? If not, then you should consider that it is Islamic governments, supported by Muslims who commit Islamic terror.

I have nothing at all against Muslims or MEsterners if they would just get off their a**es, fix their failing societies and stop supporting worldwide jihadi terror via their zakat donations. Don't tell me that is not so, because no one else is taking up collections for Islamists—except perhaps the EU. No other clerics in the world incite murder from the pulpit—except Islamic clerics. Why don't Muslims use the BILLIONS of dollars in charity monies they collect to better their societies instead of pumping these into Islamic terror machines? Why don't the mullahs of Iran develop their society instead of trying to develop atomic weapons?

Yes, indeed, I judge people by their behavior. The Iranians just "voted" in a very, very Islamic regime. As Yaser said on the thread" "Why election was rigged" 'The election was rigged or not, the result clearly shows that there are more people supporting "Islamic Republic" than many of us thought.' Right now, as I post this THOUSANDS are demonstrating FOR Islamic terror and against the Israeli non-violent wall to keep the terrorists out. The Muslim Palestinians want those suicide bombers to be able to come into Israel proper to continue to blow up school busses with innocent children on them—just as they did yesterday.

This thread is about whether Iranians or other MEsterners "deserve" their governments. I say they do because they are not doing anything to free themselves.

What do you say—except an ad hominem attack on me? Why don't you attack American Woman who said basically the same thing? That democracy must be gotten by people themselves and not given by force by the "world's policeman." "Isn't Democracy, by definition, government for the people, by the people. Don't they have to do it themselves? Otherwise, you just switch oppressors.

". . .I wish you good luck in becoming a normal person. . . ."

And I wish you good luck in becoming a thinking person, Mia! Thanks for yet another thoughtless, ad hominem attack.

Why don't you go over to this thread:

http://freethoughts.org/archives/000560.html

Couldn't you be "disgusted" by Khoda hafez, (a "westerner" himself) for calling some Westerners "filthy anglo-saxon"s? Or does that not count because he is not me? I guess it is OK for MEsterners and Muslims to have racism, bigotry, misanthropy and misogyny written in their so-called "holy" book and for their highly placed professionals to call our president an idiot, a retard, etc. It's just not OK for us "filthy anglo-saxons" to object to it.