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A few weeks ago, Mahmoud Shamsolvaezin, a reformist journalist, was in Toronto and gave a speech about parliamentary election in Iran. There was one sentence in his talk which I liked the most. He said: "Iranians are very patient to endure the long-term dictatorship however they are very impatient whenever there is any hope." In my opinion, what has happened during the last month in Iran is the best proof for this claim.
More than one hundred MPs started a sit-in in protest to the mass disqualification of the candidates by the Guardian Council a month ago. The sit-in lasted for 26 days and ended differently than what many people thought at the beginning. The MPs did not compromise on their demands with the conservatives. They finally resigned and are still standing on their promises. Sadly, people are not supporting them.
People may have a few reasons for their reluctance. They think that reformists should have stood against the conservatives much earlier, when Ayatollah Khamenei rejected the press bill. In people's view, the reformists' action is very late as well as dishonest. The MPs didn't do anything till their own fate fell into danger. On the other hand, people are disappointed by observing no real changes after the reformists came into the power. They now prefer to take care of their everyday life believing that engaging in the politics of their own country has turned out to be useless.
Whatever the reasons for people's reluctance are and whoever's fault is, this will only help the conservatives to come into the power and rule the country by their backward agenda. This is a sad fact that people simply ignore paying attention to it. Their action (inaction!) is based on several wrong assumptions which have lead to this miserable situation.
I have real problem understanding the concept of "disappointment" used by many people. One may become disappointed of a certain way, but then has to come up with a new thing. Even if people think that the reform movement can not solve their problems, sitting in their homes would not be the alternative solution. Or if they do, it is what they have chosen consciously and should accept its consequences. This disappointment is the same as the impatience mentioned by Shamolvaezin in his talk. Iranians start something and then get disappointed after few years. Then they live under dictatorship for hundred years. They do something again for few years and this loop continues forever. No wonder why we are standing where we are now.
Another wrong assumption which most of the people have is that they think of the current power struggle as a game which they are only the fans while the reformists and conservative are the two teams playing it. As Alavitabar, a reformist, once said, in this game conservatives are playing like a chimpanzee. There is no doubt that when people who have to also play, go aside and watch the game and only once in a while shout, the reformists will lose that game. People should understand the result of this game is firstly linked to their own fate and not only the reformists. I have quite often heard from people that "The reformists haven't done anything. Why should I vote for them?" They say it as if they are doing a favor for the reformists by voting! They are doing a favor for themselves.
It is important to note that the conservatives make their decision based on the pressure they feel by the public opinion. As an example, they used to kill the authors and writers in the past while they send them to jail now. Though they would prefer to kill them even now, they don't simply because of the public opinion. This is why people can play a major role in getting their rights. Sadly, people haven't done much apart from casting a ballot every one or two years, what they even hesitated in the last city council elections. In the last few years, the only active social force was the university students which currently suffer badly from losing their unity.
The fate of the sit-in could have been (and still be) very positive. We tend to neglect the importance of what happened in the last month. In the history of our country, you can rarely see such a resistance against the dictatorship of the power. I think people are to lose another opportunity and will regret for their reluctance later. These two weeks will pass very quickly and quietly. Regardless of the turnout, the conservatives will sweep the parliamentary seats and a year later the presidential one. People patiently endure the dictators again for the coming years. The dictators who are not legitimate by any standard as people who tend to boycott any election wish. I am just wondering how this illegitimacy will make a difference in my life.
It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people deserve those who govern them.
"It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people are deserved for those who govern them."
Absolutely true, Yaser! All people get they government they deserve. And still the Iranians nor any Middle Easterners don't see the root of their problem—Islam.
Islam is what makes people sheep. But, it is apostasy to admit that—thus taboo. "Allah wills it" and they just continue to be subjugated. That is why many don't believe there will ever be democracy in Islamic lands.
If you will note, the people of the West, especially the U.S., are already "bored" with the problems of Islamic lands. Iraq is a never ending black hole that drains blood and treasure from the U.S.. Afghanistan will again revert to tribal warfare no matter what we do. Saudi Arabia is as backward as ever. Iran won't have fair elections—again. All the other ME states are a mess and seem to like it that way, despite complaining.
We in the West are damned TIRED of throwing good money after bad to help Muslims and see it misused to fund terror instead of promote freedom and the rule of law. Besides, we have our own problems that need to be solved. We want our people out of Iraq and don't want much to do with any ME state. The EU does not want to contribute their share because they know it is futile. But, they don't have the guts to admit it.
In the end, you will all be left to your own devices—again. Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem! We see no progress in islamic lands—ever. Thus, no one will help you unless you help yourselves. We will only fight against Islamic terror—and that we shall do with a vengeance!
God helps those who help themselves.
What Went Wrong? http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm
. . . If the peoples of the Middle East continue on their present path, the suicide bomber may become a metaphor for the whole region, and there will be no escape from a downward spiral of hate and spite, rage and self-pity, poverty and oppression, culminating sooner or later in yet another alien domination—perhaps from a new Europe reverting to old ways, perhaps from a resurgent Russia, perhaps from some expanding superpower in the East. But if they can abandon grievance and victimhood, settle their differences, and join their talents, energies, and resources in a common creative endeavor, they can once again make the Middle East, in modern times as it was in antiquity and in the Middle Ages, a major center of civilization. For the time being, the choice is theirs. . . "
I only agree to a point with Lewis' statement.
"Islamic democracy" is an oxymoron. There can NEVER be a modern democracy under the yoke of Islam because Islam is a 7th century religion that cannot be modified as other religions have been. It worked "fine" up until the middle ages. But, when the reformation and age of enlightenment came to the West, Islam could not keep up—because it is "immutable."
Therefore, if Muslims want a renaissance, they have to re-think Islam and stop blaming other things for their state of affairs.
Wessie
Dear Wessie
As Imam Ali says :"people deserve those who govern them."
Americans deserve Bush, while Iranians are looking for somebody even more intellectual than Khatami.
I'm not sure you know Khatami or not, but I hope at least you know your own leader ;-)
Islam is now about 1400 years old. What did Christianity look like on its 1400th birthday? And how long did it take Christianity to respect all those liberal values once that Reformation started? Didn't they keep killing each other in the name of their God for another 150 years?
I think Islamic countries can move much faster, since they have the Western democracies to look to as examples. But these things still take time.
Actually, Borghan we don't deserve Bush, since he was not elected, but rather appointed by the Supreme Court. Now, if we truly elect him this time—then, we deserve him. ;-) But, even IF that happens, we only get him for 4 more years—regardless.
The specious argument that Islam is "only" 1400 years old does not hold water, King Kong. First, Islam claims to have been very "progressive" while Europe was in the dark ages. So, WHAT HAPPENED? We have all been on the same planet at the same time. Why did Islam stop in the Middle Ages and even revert to the 7th century in so many places? I'll tell you why. Because Islam is not compatible with free thought, democracy or civil society that thinks for itself. Muslims must follow the prescribed "order" of Islam—or they are not Muslims.
You all continue to evade the issue. That is that Islam is NOT compatible with democracy. Whether you have our example or not won't make a bit of difference.
Center for the Study of Islam & Democracy:
http://www.islam-democracy.org/
Wessie
Lon time ago someone left this comment in my blog:
"if we were having this debate [whether Islam is compatible with democracy] in the 10th century we would be asking the opposite question: why is Islam compatible with civilization and Christianity is not?"
With your argument Wessie, we also did not elect our supreme leader. He was elected by the "Khobregan" (Some old guys that overlook (in theory) leader's actions.
Yaser, thanks for your well written article. I agree with you that people are not gonna benefit from defeat of the reformist, even if the reformist deserve their defeat because of their inaction earlier.
Many of the social freedoms that were gained during past six years will be reversed. Those who argue that nobody can not reverse the progress made have forgot what happened after the 1979 revolution when 50 years of progress was reversed over 3 years.
If hardliners take over the parliment and the executive branch, things will go much worse. Some people can feel indifferent now and enjoy that the lazy reformists are being punished for their incompetency, but people will learn about their mistakes when every empty land in Tehran turns to a Mosque and city squares become cemeteries (what hardline city council was trying to do).
pretty unpredictable days are ahead of Iranians.
Dear Yaser,
I have the same concern, and I am worried about the non-caring attitude of the people these days. But I am not sure, what kind of support, do you expect from people. Do you want them to come to streets and danger their lives. For what, for reformists? They do not trust them anymore. And they might be right. I think people are not that stupid, they simply do not see reformists as the solution. The problem is afterall they need to accept the "Hokme Hokoomati" form Khameneyi. I am really frustrated with what is the solution. But this is probably the frustration that people have too. And their dissappointment is because they do not have any hope for an alternative. I still think people should not be careless, and I have a feeling that people are not. But they just find this game not of any importance to them.
I sometimes doubt our intuitions, because some of us, we came out of Iran during the hot days of reformists. And we still might be living in that atmosphere, but people in Iran have moved on with their lives. It is very sad ...
"Islam is what makes people sheep."
- When submission means submission to corrupt criminal leaders, yes.. when submission means submission to what YOU think is just, no.. are there not also traditions of every muslim being responsible personally before god for what he/she does?
Christianity was meant to be separate from the state, once upon a time.. "leave what is ceasars' to ceasar".. and yet it was used by the Romans as a tool of control, and later by the Christendom.. and now it is separate from the state again.
On the other hand, during the great caliphates, like the ones in spain in 12th century, there was tolerance, modernity, and all that, more than they have now.
As you can see, things can change..
Christianity was capable of reform, and I think so is Islam. After all, we are all human.
"Iraq is a never ending black hole that drains blood and treasure from the U.S.. Afghanistan will again revert to tribal warfare no matter what we do. "
- I predict Iraq and Afghanistan will be relatively successful, sovereign Muslim democracies within 2-3 years. Media deludes you into thinking things are all going badly there, by reporting only on the bad..
"We want our people out of Iraq and don't want much to do with any ME state."
- Perhaps you don't have the patience and the responsiblity to see things through in Iraq, at least Republicans do.
"You all continue to evade the issue. That is that Islam is NOT compatible with democracy."
- then why does al-sistani support democracy?
its impossible to have real democracy with sharia law like that of wahabists, or aytollahs
but it is possible to have a democratic state with modern universal laws, with a large muslim majority, with islam as the cultural/traditional heritage.
I am so tired of the attitude that holds Islam responsible for everything that has ever happened in muslim countries and takes to account no other possible cause.
It reminds me of the attitude of Iranian leftists 50 years ago who found Islam the cause of all disasters of Iranians and the Worker Revolution the only path to salvation and prosperity.
Jeez, are really Muslims the only people under dictatorship?
Can't you see Russians went under dictatorship for more than 50 years? Their situation is still hopeless: Only one-voiced media of government, no independent TV channel or newspaper. Inspired elections, corrupt judicial and economic system...Their situation seems much more hopeless than Iran. Do you think they are muslims or even religious, I doubt so.
Look at sub-Saharan Africa. People are living in extreme poverty with frightening rate of HIV pollution under stupid dictators(just look at what Mugabe does) with millions of civil war casualties. The famous brutal civil war of Liberia has nothing less than hell. Let me tell you they are not muslim countries.
Argentina had the same GDP per capita as USA at the beginning of 20th century. Now compare it with USA. Were they muslims and fall out of development path because of their religion? Other South American countries have similar stories with periods of horrible rule of dictators and civil wars. I doubt they are muslims either.
Come on, even in the US there are less developed areas and people. Are the %80 of US population who only hold %20 of US capital muslim?
Let’s stop trying to justify everything with Islam. Believe me, there are really smart social scientists who struggle to figure out the answer of these questions. There are many factors that determine how some economies (or even people within a country) grow and others fall in development traps and don’t grow as fast. How capital accumulates somewhere due to the kind of resources and their distribution and regulations and property rights and does not do somewhere else.
"if we were having this debate [whether Islam is compatible with democracy] in the 10th century we would be asking the opposite question: why is Islam compatible with civilization and Christianity is not?"
Now, now, now, WhoMan, the whole rest of the world, including Christianity was not exactly living in caves during that time. You must remember that Islam CONQUERED civilizations and absorbed them. It did NOT invent them. Just as Iran's civilization was conquered by the Arabs, so were others.
--
"With your argument Wessie, we also did not elect our supreme leader. He was elected by the "Khobregan" (Some old guys that overlook (in theory) leader's actions."
Right, Vahid, but you can't get rid of your "leaders"—we can. Our laws assure that. Islam's laws assure that Muslims will always be ruled by despots.
"And their dissappointment is because they do not have any hope for an alternative. "
That is because they are not thinking of any alternatives. Middle Easterners expect others to do the thinking for them. Islam doesn't give anyone a chance to think—what with prayer 5 times a day.
"On the other hand, during the great caliphates, like the ones in spain in 12th century, there was tolerance, modernity, and all that, more than they have now."
You really don't know your history, JFTDMaster. The ONLY reason Islam was more or less (but it was less) tolerant was because it had to be. It could not rule over such a HUGE empire and not be. The dhimmis is what kept the Islamic state perking. Jizya (poll tax) is what kept the Islamic coffers full. Once the dhimmis either converted or died off Islam had little left. Islam is not and cannot be innovative. Aside from the principal of zero, there is little that has been invented or developed by Muslims. Certainly NOTHING in the last 500 years.
"I predict Iraq and Afghanistan will be relatively successful, sovereign Muslim democracies within 2-3 years."
I would like to eat my hat on this. But, I doubt it.
"Perhaps you don't have the patience and the responsiblity to see things through in Iraq, at least Republicans do."
Listen Pal, I have LIVED through the building of a democracy in a totally destroyed state—a Western state. It took decades, not 2-3 years. You have no clue what you are talking about. The American people are not willing to babysit and pay for a Muslim state for the next 20 to 50 years and beyond. Neither are the Europeans.
"but it is possible to have a democratic state with modern universal laws, with a large muslim majority, with islam as the cultural/traditional heritage."
Well, past performance is a great indicator of future performance. Given the history of Islam for 1400 years it won't happen unless Islam is no more.
---
Faezeh, in every society there are particular factors that make it successful or not. In Africa as well as S. America the issue is the inability of the people to own property as well as despotic leaders. Read Hernando de Soto's works:
http://www.ild.org.pe/hernandodesoto.htm
as well as George Ayittey's:
http://www.aworldconnected.org/people.php/78778.html
In Muslims lands it is Islam that have held them back—for centuries. That will continue to be the case unless there is a big change in Islam. I doubt that this will happen anytime soon.
Russia, BTW, is doing fine. Certainly much, much better than any ME state. Compared to 10 years ago Russia is on easy street. So are many of the other former Eastern block states. These things take time. But, they don't have Islam to keep them backward or to preach bigotry and hatred. People are at least literate in the former Soviet Union.
What do you think the "other possible cause" might be as to why Muslims NEVER seem to get anywhere? Please specify.
Islam needs to be separated from being a "total" system for living to strictly a religion. The problem is that this is not allowed in Islam as it is in say, Christianity or Judaism.
The only hope I see is via the media. That Muslims get inundated by "radio free Islam" or some such thing as the net and see how the rest of the world lives and works and plays. Perhaps that will make them DO something about their plight.
Wessie
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]". . . If we want to win the war against Islamic terrorism, all of us must join hands and combat Islam on all fronts. But the most important front is the ideological front. The Islamic terrorism is the outcome of Islamic theology. The terrorists, the suicide bombers, are born and raised within the bosom of Islam. It is the belief in Islam and the hate speeches of the Quran that makes them despise the rest of mankind and pushes them to such extremes. We can't fight Islamic terrorism if we do not address its cause." Ali sina
Faith & Freedom International
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Wessie:
You say: "Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem!", I wish you (I mean USA) always believed in this phrase and had not interfered in Iran in time of Mosadegh!
Vahid,
you say:
"I sometimes doubt our intuitions, because some of us, we came out of Iran during the hot days of reformists. And we still might be living in that atmosphere, but people in Iran have moved on with their lives. It is very sad ... "
I believe we have to express our opinion even if the majority of people are not happy to hear it. For example, people should be told that they made a big mistake by not voting in the city council election, which was the most free election since 1981.
Just because we don't live in Iran doesn't make our logical arguments any weaker. We still have far more access to information through Internet.
Well, for the upcoming election, there is no choice is left except not voting, but unfortunately the price of any change has gone up considerable higher as the result of the impatiance of people that Yaser talked about.
LOL oh the evil machinations of the U.S. in Iran started with the Shah and his land reforms.
Somayeh, are you telling me that you blame the U.S. for EVERYTHING when the writer of the article above says: ". . .It has been hundreds of years that Iran is ruled by dictators, from kings to mullahs. In my opinion, this clearly shows that the problem cannot lie on the ruling dictator, but the people. This reminds me a quote from Imam Ali, the first Shiite religious leader, that the people deserve those who govern them."
The US is only a couple hundred years old. We can't be responsible for all of Iran's woes. Besides, you all have had several generations to fix the current woes from the Islamic revolution. Why haven't you?
Mehdi, if you don't vote then you should not express your opinion because you have abdicated that right.
Whenever someone gripes in the U.S. the first thing I ask is "did you vote?" If they say no, they have no leg to stand on!
Wessie
You know, the problem is we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
The Arabs, Iranians, Muslims, Africans, S. Americans, Europeans are constantly SCREAMING for American to "DO SOMETHING!!!"
When we do, then we are condemned for it.
Like I said. We hardly care anymore. As long as Islamic terrorists don't come over here.
Don't ask us for money, don't ask for help when there is a natural disaster such as Bam. We came, we helped and the mullahs spit into our faces— again!
I think ALL aid and diplomatic relations should be cut off until the recipient countries prove that they deserve it. Countries such as terror sponsoring Egypt do not. And neither does Israel.
So, give me one good reason why we should help Iran? Especially since they want to develop nukes so they can blow Israel to paradise and have nuclear fall-out all over the ME.
Wessie
Wessie:
I never said I blame US for everything in the history! I just said if you think the problems in Iran are not YOUR problem, you should not have interfered and done harm when people of Iran were initiating a movement towards democracy.
Just as you know, I very much agree with the point of the article saying the problem is with the people, and I was commenting on your comment, not on the article!
Wessie,
Islam did more than conquering civilizations. Maybe Iranians don't owe Islam anything, maybe not. But at least the West owes Islam a debt for preserving the Greek classics and for continuing with scientific enquiry and the advancement of mathematics. The real question is: what happened to reverse the situation if it is reversible? How did the Islamic world go in the wrong direction?
Bashing Islam outright doesn't do anyone good and isn't prodcutive. Now you're suggesting what? Abandonning Islam altogether? Suggest something more practical. BTW, if my dad was a millionaire, I would live quite differently. Can I discuss about my dad and complain that he isn't rich too?
Somayeh, please elaborate EXACTLY what you are saying.
It is very tiresome for Muslims to always accuse the U.S. of being to blame for whatever the heck is wrong in their world. Like I said. You have had several GENERATIONS since the "Islamic revolution" to fix whatever the Hell is wrong with your society. WHY DIDN'T YOU???
I, as an American, could NOW blame Muslims for what is wrong with the U.S. and the fact that we have GW Bush as president. Notice that no Americans are doing that. We fix our own problems and don't blame the rest of the word and don't expect anyone else to do it for us! We shall vote.
"But at least the West owes Islam a debt for preserving the Greek classics and for continuing with scientific enquiry and the advancement of mathematics."
WhoMan, give us a break here. Why isn't the WHOLE world genuflecting toward America for all the wonderful things we have invented, developed and discovered??? All those things that Muslims (and everyone else) use in the modern age that makes life so wonderful, without a second though from computer technology to medicine.
Why is it that Muslims want credit for the very, tiny, little bit they contributed to civilization over and over and over again? Maybe because they haven't done a damn thing for over 1000 years!?
"The real question is: what happened to reverse the situation if it is reversible? How did the Islamic world go in the wrong direction?"
What went wrong is that Islam is"immutable" and thus stagnant. Of course it's reversible. But, not without dumping Islam.
Yes, I am for scratching the most fascistic "religion" and going on from there. Because staying with Islam is very, very impractical in the modern age. It will keep Muslims, poor, backward, bigoted and very angry for a long long time.
It will lead to another world war—one that may take the whole planet down. Already the mullahs in Iran are looking for atomic weapons and I, as well as much of the world, believe they will use them.
But, of course, that is what the Islamofasicsts want. Armageddon!
It is up to you, as an educated, elite MEsterner/Muslim (if you are one) to enlighten your fellow Muslims.
No one can educate the ummah but Muslims. No one can bring the truth to them but Muslims. Islam is leading us toward the abyss!
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." — Albert Einstein
Wessie
Wessie:
I think what I am saying is crystal clear. I am not trying to answer why our people have not fixed their problems, and I am not blaming USA for whatever has happened in the world over the history. I am commmenting on a section of your comment saying: "Change is up to Iranians, Arabs— Muslims. It is NOT our problem! ". If that's right, just answer one simple question: Why did USA interfere in Iran in time of Mosadegh?
Wasn't it our problem and we were trying to fix it and you ruined our efforts? You may ask why we didn't fix our problems ever after, I don't want to discuss the answer, but whatever the answer, it does not purify US for interfering at that point of history in Iran.
Next time you think about how kind and nice USA is in throwing money to middle east, also think it has done harm as well, and god knows if it is doing good at this point or not, and what its real intentions are.
Somayeh, you are blaming the U.S. (and not also the Brits) for everything with respect to Mosadegh and the rule of the Shah?
Now, my dear, that was a long time ago–more than half a century. In the mean time, Iran has had plenty of time—certainly since the Islamic revolution to get on with things. Mosadegh was one man. You mean there were no other Iranian heroes who could do what he could?
I understand that some people look with great nostalgia at the rule of the Shah, which was benign compared to that of the Islamic mullahs.
"Wasn't it our problem and we were trying to fix it and you ruined our efforts? You may ask why we didn't fix our problems ever after, I don't want to discuss the answer, but whatever the answer, it does not purify US for interfering at that point of history in Iran."
No, of course you don't want to discuss anything at all. You just want to blame YOUR failures—for centuries— onto others.
So, shall we talk about Iran's sponsoring of international Islamic terror? How about the hostages? We too have a long memory. And Iran has done NOTHING to change its image as an Islamic terror state. Iran is still an enemy state as far as the U.S. is concerned. And with mindsets such as yours one can see why.
Blame and victimization that is the culture of Iran and the Middle East. You are an educated person. Why don't you become the next Mosadegh?
Talking to MEesterners is like speaking to drug addicts. They blame everyone else for their problems and will never admit that THEY have a problem.
Wessie
Once more, I am not blaming US for everything, I am blaming it for one specific thing, which is in contrast to what you say that our problems are none of your business! To make it clear, I agree that Iranians haven't done a lot to change their country. That is not the point of my discussion however!!!
Once more, I am not blaming US for everything, I am blaming it for one specific thing, which is in contrast to what you say that our problems are none of your business! To make it clear, I agree that Iranians haven't done a lot to change their country. That is not the point of my discussion however!!!
Wessie,
Your polititions apologized about their interfrence in case of Mosadegh. Stop repeating yourself and admit that US did wrong!
Yasser
Thanks for your post. It has been a while that I hadn't seen except cursing and insulting reformists and Khatami on online publishing(except in behnoudonline.com).
I feel there is a huge lack of "rational thinking" in what is published online. I don't know how much this effects poeple inside Iran and influences them. But The fact that the only windows except "Seda o Simaa" for young poeple is Iranian-american satellite programs and online blogs and they mostly curse and spread irratinality(in my view) is scaring.
Maybe along with this blog, one should set up a persian website that a sort of rational and open debate can take place online.
This could be much differnet from comments on gooya or behnoudonline, because in this case a considerable amount of young academic iranian students commit themselves to comment with higher standards and posts would enjoy a higher standard too.
I don't know the rules of editors of this site, I hope there would be a way that poeple talk about this topic here.
Wessie,
You said: "Why isn't the WHOLE world genuflecting toward America for all the wonderful things we have invented, developed and discovered???"
Probably you don't put your ears where the world (including Iranians who probably you think live in cave) admire Amercians for those inventions. But keep in mind, the American contribution is also a brick in the human civilization's structure, like any others. So why harping on?
Dumping Islam? Very practical, you think, huh? 70 years of communism couldn't shed religion of the Soviet Union. Listen, Islam, as is, may have problems, but they are not worse than what perhaps some other religions had in their way as challenges.
Can you listen to yourself for a second though? You sound more like an offspring of a wealthy who hasn't suffered from any geographical restrictions or historical setbacks, and now picks on other people who haven't been successful as much.
Wessie: I'd like you to read these two articles. The first is an example of a "moderate" muslim group sending out a moderate message. The second is about the election choices in USA, and the relevance of UN and the use of force by America.
Islamic Supreme Council of America
and
A fateful choice
oops guess that didnt post
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/default.asp?pane_2=content-extremism_wahabroots
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=papers&code=04-D_06
"Maybe along with this blog, one should set up a persian website that a sort of rational and open debate can take place online."
I agree with Faeze. It seems a great idea. It is enough to translate every article written in this blog, and let people who don't know enough english, leave their comments in the persian part of blog. It will also be interesting to see if the discussions between people who are already living in Iran is different with the discussions in English part or not.
Mishe yeki ertebate in commentha ro be matne asli bara man tozih bede?
Salam Yaser
I am not sure if I completely understand your reasoning. The way you put it the problem lies with in the people (something which I am not really sure of) but then why do you think some people (in this case Iranians) have chosen to be indifferent towards what’s happening to them? For nearly all our history we have been ruled by governors which fall into the category of dictators with modern standards. If you think the reason behind this should be sought within people then what has driven Iranians to choose this form of government among all other forms. We never adopted the ancient Greek democracy or the modern one which is currently exercised is many countries. Is it because where we live? (Recall “Ma Chegouneh Ma Shodim?: Sadegh Zibakalam”) Is it because of how we think (if yes then why we think so different?) or is just by pure luck?
Ali
I agree with everything Yaser said. I don't know what the reason is for this wrong behavior in Iranians. Islam, as Wessie pointed out, may be a factor but I am not sure how important it is. Wessie wrote alot (thank you Wessie) but didn't give any reason for her oppinion other than pointing out the correlation between being a Muslem country and not having Democracy.
As an atheist I have found some good points and a lot of bad points in both Christianity an Islam. I will just mention one thing I really liked about Christianity when I heard it first when I came to the US: The whole mission of Jesus (or perhaps 90% of it;)) was to die on cross so that all our sins are forgiven (with such great sacrifice as god's son). I don't think very highly of a person who believs such a story, but I think it has a very good effect on the believer; It's also a partial cure for bad conscience.
One last point: Appearance of Democracy in western countries MAY be only a (approximate) symmetry breaking phenomenon: The world needed to be half democratic and half despotic, And there were lots of small symmetry breaking factors around.
"One last point: Appearance of Democracy in western countries MAY be only a (approximate) symmetry breaking phenomenon: The world needed to be half democratic and half despotic, And there were lots of small symmetry breaking factors around."
- That's an interesting point, but how do you explain the spread and deepening of democracy everywhere, from eastern europe to africa? The only exceptions are the majority of Muslim states (that have a freedom deficit), and the completely failed/faliling states. Concepts like "the people" being in charge, and a legally equal system for all of "the people", are characteristics of modern nationalism, and doesn't that naturally lead to democracy? I hope to live to see a day when all the nations are democracies.
The Jihadis' Primal Scream
Zarkawi's "Yaarrrhhh!"
Michael Ledeen
Unless you depend on CNN for information - CNN totally and stunningly transformed the story, as Instapundit informed us yesterday - by now you have heard of the New York Times story about the discovery of a 17-page letter from Abu Musab al Zarkawi, written from Iraq in the middle of last month to the leaders of al Qaeda. It's an extremely explosive story.
According to the Times - whose correspondent, Dexter Filkins, saw both the Arabic original and a military translation, and "wrote down large parts of the translation" - the letter is a sort of jihadist primal scream. It says that the jihad against the Americans in Iraq is going badly. The Iraqis are not signing up for martyrdom or jihad, they do not even permit the jihadis to organize their terrorist attacks from local houses, and, worst of all, the Americans are not afraid of the terrorists. With that charming neglect of logic that seems to define much of the radical terrorist "mind," Zarkawi says both that the Americans "are the biggest cowards that God has created," and that "America...has no intention of leaving, no matter how many wounded nor how bloody it becomes."
And he adds, "we can pack up and leave and look for another land, just like what has happened in so many lands of jihad. Our enemy is growing stronger day after day, and its intelligence information increases."
If we had a government capable of advancing its case to the world at large, those phrases would be broadcast around the world, because they constitute an admission of defeat by a man in the forefront of the campaign against us in Iraq.
If that were all it said, it would be sensational for most Americans, although certainly not for NRO readers. I pointed out a couple of months ago that the terror masters in Damascus, Tehran, and Riyadh were undoubtedly gnashing their teeth, because their grand design for mass slaughter of Americans and bigtime insurrections all over Iraq, had failed. They had expected a bloodbath of epic proportions, and the same sort of "revolutionary" demonstrations that they had used so effectively against us in Lebanon in the 1980s and against the Israelis a decade later. But instead, they have discovered that the Iraqis don't like them (can we all finally put a nail in the coffin of that idiotic "they're all Shiites so they will all work together" myth?), and that the country is, indeed, headed toward democracy. Zarkawi even uses the word, as he gasps, "by God, this is suffocation!"
But there is more. He says the only chance for victory in Iraq is to provoke a Sunni/Shiite civil war, and the best way to do that is to unleash jihad against the Iraqi Shiites - referred to as "the perverse sects" - expecting that they will blame the Sunnis for it. The civil war would then "awaken the sleepy Sunnis..."
I have said for some time that the strategy of terror masters - above all, the mullahs in Tehran - was to foster civil strife in Iraq. They have been trying very hard to foment Kurdish/Turkamen, Sunni/Shiite and intertribal conflict for at least the past few months. But they greatly underestimated both the savvy of the Iraqis - who have seen the hundreds of Iranian Revolutionary Guards officers and their al Qaeda allies swarming all over the country, guiding the suicide bombers, organizing the radio and television broadcasts, and intimidating the locals whenever possible - and the slow but deliberate progress of the American armed forces. We aren't nearly as stupid as we look, and, as Zarkawi has discovered to his dismay, we don't run from a fight. At least not so long as this president is confidently in charge.
At the same time they underestimated us and the Iraqis, they overestimated their own capabilities. Iranian leaders have been told for months by their operatives in Iraq that large-scale destruction and major political action was just around the corner. But with every passing week, they realize they've been the victims of their own fantasies.
Although Zarkawi has often operated from Iran - as proven by court documents in Italy and Germany, and by information gathered by both our military and our intelligence folks in Europe and the Middle East - he is not Iranian. He's a Jordanian Palestinian, whose basic mission is the overthrow of the Hashemites in his native land. To judge by this letter, he is not particularly sophisticated about the requirements of the mullahcracy back in Tehran. They cannot "pack up and leave and look for another land," for, as President Bush rightly said in his Sunday session with Tim Russert, they are mortally threatened by the spread of democracy in the Middle East. They will have to play every card they have to drive us out, and, as Zarkawi's letter shows, they realize they are on a tight schedule: Once an Iraqi government is in place in June, "the sons of this land will be the authority...This is the democracy. We will have no pretexts."
So we can expect to see a desperate campaign against us and against the Shiites in the next several weeks.
Meanwhile, back in Iran, the natives are reading the various auguries, wondering what the primal forces of world history have in store for them. On the one hand, the parade of appeasers added a distinguished figure from the country that coined the word itself. Britain's very own Prince Charles sneaked off to Tehran to meet with the impotent President Khatami in yet another effort to make a deal that would save the tyrants from their doom. On the other hand, a handful of parliamentarians, mostly those rejected by the regime and thus denied high status and a guaranteed monthly wage, went to the universities to join in the boycott of the February 20 general elections. Their support is hardly necessary - a government poll in Tehran a week ago produced a truly amazing statistic: More than 90 percent do not intend to vote - but they deserve high marks for personal and political courage. Most Iranians expect that the regime will install a new Stalinism once the elections have been held, leading judicial figures have publicly scolded the parliamentarians to expect punishment, and the regime's thugs have launched a preemptive war on student leaders all over the country.
Nonetheless, demonstrations continue all over the country. Demonstrations in Kerman a couple of weeks ago were so large that the regime was forced to bring in helicopter gunships to mow down the protesters, and the usual thugs were unleashed on student demonstrators in Tehran and Shiraz in the last few days. Despite the calls for appeasement from the State Department and a handful of our elected representatives, the Iranian people can see what is going on in Iraq, and they must take a measure of comfort from it. And the regime was so upset by President Bush's passing reference to Middle Eastern tyrants who feel threatened by the liberation of Iraq (this weekend), that on Monday the official news service reported that Bush had threatened Iran with the same treatment he had delivered to Iraq. I can hear the Iranians sighing, "oh, if only it is true."
We do not need to fight a war to liberate Iran, but we must liberate Iran in order to win the terror war in Iraq. Zarkawi is part of a terror network that is based in Iran, and receives enormous support from the mullahs. If Iran were a free country, Iraq would be immeasurably more peaceful. It is time for Secretary Powell to call an end to the shameful efforts at appeasement, and throw his enormous personal prestige behind the just cause of the Iranian people. He disappointed them last summer, when he proclaimed that we did not wish to get engaged in the Iranian "family squabble." But it is not that; it is part of the life-and-death struggle in which we are now engaged. The longer we wait to support freedom in Iran, the more Americans, Italians, Poles, Japanese, Dutch, Romanians, Spaniards, and others, will be killed in Iraq.
Faster, please.
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]I have spent the last weeks reading the blog pages and researching topics regarding Iran. Specifically the political struggles and how this relates to America involvment. We are interested in topics that will allow us to talk specifically about the American media and how this differs from other media around the world. Also how the media involved in the conflicts over the last century are regarded by the locals. Other topics that we would like to discuss include women in Iran and their political struggles and ofcourse an overall view of life in Iran from those who have visited and those who have lived there.
This information is being gathered specifically for an upcoming documentary on Iran: The Land of Roses and Nightengales. My request although broad is simply to get opion of those close to this land and its plights. Plus we are looking for footage, photo's, and diligent sources of information on Iranians (the locals), politics, and the women.
You are welcome to e-mail regarding my upcoming documentary info@sweetmarieproductions.com and when it comes to personal footage please discribe in detail what you have.
Sincerely
Michelle
Somayeh, for weeks I have been asking on this website, including on this thread, WHY the Iranians are not really doing anything about their situation. YOU and others constantly obfuscate and want to turn things around blaming the U.S. While the U.S. may have "interfered" that did not prevent the Iranians AFTER that to fix their problems. They have had over half a century to do so.
Our politicians have admitted and apologized for "interference"—what the heck do you want from me?
" That is not the point of my discussion however!!!"
What is your point, aside from taking up bandwidth beating a DEAD HORSE. None of us can do anything about the past. I, we the American people, cannot change the fact that Bush did a very stupid thing by going into Iraq. We can only hope to change it by voting him out and repairing the image with our allies and our enemies.
However, voting the Bushies out will not change anyone's mind about violent Islam. The fight against Islamic terrorism shall continue no matter WHO is in the White House.
---
"Probably you don't put your ears where the world (including Iranians who probably you think live in cave) admire Amercians for those inventions." . . . You sound more like an offspring of a wealthy who hasn't suffered from any geographical restrictions or historical setbacks, and now picks on other people who haven't been successful as much.
You know, WhoMan, people on this website have very thin skins when one tells the truth about Islam and the problems it causes. But, you continually insult intelligent, educated, well travelled Westerners with such comments. Where do you get off saying any such thing!? Not all Americans are ignorant. We have the greatest, most productive society on the planet because at least some of us are educated, smart and well travelled!
And you sound like a whining MEsterner who has nothing better to do than to take Western hospitality and spit into our faces and insult us. Will you tell the same to your Ph.D. mentor/sponsor?
"Islam, as is, may have problems, but they are not worse than what perhaps some other religions had in their way as challenges."
Islam IS THE PROBLEM! And it is much, much WORSE than ANY other religion because MURDER of "unbelievers" is mandated in hundreds of passages. Now, you may not want to see that but the world is catching on.
Today AGAIN, murders in the name of Islam. Not murders for freedom, but in the name of blood thirsty allah.
I have suggested that when— IF Muslims ever become educated that Islam will fade away onto the dustbin of history where all the other myths have gone. Many apostates say the same. Give me one good reason to keep such a violent, misanthropic religion if you are an educated, thinking person?
---
Reza, that is an interesting point you make about symmetry. In that case, we shall never get past this. The Ying, Yang of it will not let us. Prepare to live with Islamic terror forever. :-((
With respect to the Christian view vs. Islamic. Yes, Christianity is supposed to "spread the good news" about Jesus, peace and love—but not via violence as is mandated by Islam. That is the primary difference. Islam is a "religion" of exclusion, misanthropy, war and subjugation while Christianity is a religion of inclusion, love of all peoples, peace and up-lifting positivity. BTW—I am not a Christian, so I don't have an ax to grind here regarding pushing Christianity.
----
JFTDMaster I shall read your articles, but, I hope that you too will read my links so that you get a clearer picture of why Islam cannot be reformed.
"We aren't nearly as stupid as we look, and, as Zarkawi has discovered to his dismay, we don't run from a fight. At least not so long as this president is confidently in charge. . . "
You see, that is the problem being an American. Some of us come across as "simple and unsophisticated" and even dumb, (even if we have Masters degrees, Ph.Ds and have travelled) because we are generally easy going, have a "live and let live," attitude and we respect other cultures—unless they try to destroy ours.
However, as I said before, we SAVED the world twice in the last century and SAVED Muslims numerous times. No one seems to want to remember those things. It takes smarts and guts to save the world. Americans are up to it. Islamofascists only have the guts to try to destroy the world. Good thing they don't have the smarts to do it! The barely literate mullahs, muftis, ayatollahs, imams and their illiterate followers are hardly a match for an American freedom fighter. Let them push us and every literate American housewife will take up arms to defend her family. Then ALL HELL will be released on the jihadis in the form of American womanhood. They will cut off the ba**s and the beards of those ayatollahs. ;-)
Have you ever noticed what fine clothing those Iranian "holy" men wear—how well groomed they are? It takes money to look that good. The ayatollahs have not exactly taken a vow of poverty. They ought to try another pot style though. Black is so boring. ;-)
Wessie
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]I think people’s attitude toward politics at the present is understandable. They don’t see the election to be effective anymore as the reform movement in the frame work of the law and government which would mean compromising with hardliners to get some limited reform has failed. The only available options is to stand against the hardliners face to face and we all know what unpleasant consequences that would imply for individuals (the least is prison, not having the right to work or being expelled from university. To be honest I am really surprise to see there are still some people willing to take these risks. I mean just look around you how many people do you see who have already lost someone close to them for such hopes in the last 25 years and they feel betrayed? How many students got expelled from universities just in last few years? Now look back at the last 100 years, I really can’t blame someone who has already made a sacrifice, willing to live a quiet everyday life with her family. I know we shouldn’t give up so soon but this is such a big gambling, after all I am only going to live once so there better be a great hope and motivation if I am going to lose it or live this life in prison or jobless.
Ghazal
You mentioned a important factor: who should take the risk towards change?
I think Yasser's post somehow addresses this too. Our poeple left the risk free measures of change(like elections of City counsil) and showed the green sign to conservatives to move fearless of empty-backed reformists.
We ignored(or understimated) the risk free measures and lose a winning situation and naturally ended up in a losing situation where high risk tasks are needed only to make a little diffrence(like street deminstrations or what univ. students do)
Wessie,
I don't understand your double standard. While you insult others culture and background, people should be thick skinned, but you seem to be easily offended when the tables are turned.
You take a few low and unfortuate centruies out of history and bash a culture that has been the cradle of civilization and downplay its role without being able to wrap your head around its magnitude (judging from your previous comments)and the historical burden it carries around. This is while the western civilization has been able to pull itself out of the muck only for the last few centuries. I am sorry, but playing it up is just sheer arrogance and ignoring history. That's for my comment on wealthy offspring, and NO, my "Ph.D. mentor/sponsor" is not like that.
Wessie,I came here to just have a respectful debate and learn one thing or two. It seems to me there should be some level of respect towards each other's background in every debate unless we don't mean to have a cohesive and constructive debate. But instead I see you "continually" bash and expect this to be a one way street.So I am outta here.But let me finish with this:
I think Islam needs a serious review. Yet you managed to alienate me. I wonder what kind of effect your tone and language has on people who don't think like me.
Cheers!
Alis in Wonderland
I don't really know the answer to your question. What I have said is that the people's indiffirence and impatiance has made us to be here at this point. But why it is like this and what are the roots of this problem I don't know:( My main point is that people has to get more involved in the fight between reformists and conservative.
PS : I don't have any answer to your first question either:( which I found actually as much important.
Yasser
Thank you for your answer. I am also puzzled how we have ended up being ruled by such system but I think maybe finding the reason is the key to the solution and would reveal why we have not shown patience and interest regarding our own faith.
Ali
P.S. Thank you for appreciating my first question. Believe me sometimes I am discouraged to write when I don’t see the connection between the comments and the main post.
You might like to read this article:
Between the Potomac and the Euphrates
Especially for those people who are still living in a fairytale under the illusion that the reformists were EVER the CAUSE of any progress in Iran, or that the continuance of this CIRCUS is of any benefit for Iran in the long run. (Then again, probably not...you know what Sa'di said about 'Gerdakan' and 'Gonbad'.)
I have already given my reasons in another post, so I won't bother anymore.
It is just interesting that this side, the 'left' for want of a better word in Iran, can ALWAYS insult the people for its own incompetence and get away with it. Any of this comes from any other group and the cries go to heaven.
I don't really want to waste our time to explore the 'mentality' of the likes of Shamsolvaezin here, so I let it go at that.
It is also interesting to see the same kind of shallow 'logic', that became an epidemic in 1997, start to rise up again (hopefully it would just stop there this time) and that the urge to fetch the stick is being felt once more.
I used to be fooled by such 'arguments' myself in the firts year and a half after 1997. Somehow I projected my personal experience, lonely and helpless being arrested by a bunch of thugs for 'living' like a normal human being and my feeling of despair and need to compromise with those animals to get free again, unto a president and a parliament with millions of votes behind them. Amazing isn't it? Somehow I tended to ignor the fact that they come from within this gang, each of them has all sorts of ties hidden or overt (usually tied by marriage as Mafia families) just to reach the 'marvelous' opinion that they 'NEEDED' my support or that they were doing this becxause of my future and their good will. I woke up thought to see the truth that they all belong to another TRIBE, to an enemy tribe, alien to me or whatever I considered natural. Then I stopped projecting myself, my needs and my hopes unto THEM.
Some of us here seem still to be under this illusion. Nice dreams, my friends. After all reality is a bit too harsh isn't it? Why wake up?
It is also interesting how the normal common 'street' people in Iran, in the are almost always more intelligent and think more correctly than their 'intellectuals', and how when ever they trusted those 'learned' people against their own gut feelings , catastrophy followed. I hope they won't do that this time.
So just to set the records, I support the ACTION of resigning, but I do not support in any way any of these CIRCUS REFORMISTS!
In the mean time I get more and more assured of being right in wishing Bush to win this election. Here is yet another reason:
Mullahs endorsing the democrats and vice versa
and while you are at it, read this intelligent commentary as well.
I am very busy studying and have found more useful and urgent things to do with my time these days (like bugging the MOSSAD for my late payment, shouldn't I, my practicing muslim comrads?), so I bid farewell for the moment.
'Alaqelo esharaton yakfih' (for the wise, a hint suffices)
Onc more:
Between the Potomac and the Euphrates
READ IT! ;->
-------------
PS. JFTDMaster, keep up the debate. you are doing great!
Just one more thing I forgot to point to.
It is opbvious that Iran will not be remedied in a night. That in a long run, a lengthy process of reform is needed.
the problem however with this one, and whatever has happened in the past 26-7 years is that everything is out of phase. Iranians under the stupid guidance of their indoctrinated intellectuals became 'revolutionary' exactly when they should have been reformists. They became 'nationalist' and 'idelaist' when they should have been pragmatist. They baceme 'pragmatist' (or a caricature of it, to be more precise) when they shouyld ahve been revolutionary and nationlists.
It is like using a wave as an externall kick to your own to make the ampplitude higher. The wave might be exactly what you need, with the right frequency and wavelength and apmplitude, but if is is so out of phase the result of this very same wave is the utter neutrilization of all that you had already.
That was it, sorry.
Sorry for this alst point, I'll make it quick.
No I don't have the total answer to this hoprrible situation that we find ourselves in Iran either, and unlike others I don't go around acting as if I do. But I do know whne something is NOT the answer and I will say it as it is.
That's all.
"I think Islam needs a serious review. Yet you managed to alienate me. I wonder what kind of effect your tone and language has on people who don't think like me."
WhoMan Islamic terrorism has managed to alienate the whole world. Nice of you to bail when the truth is placed out into the light—but, very typical.
Show me a specific insult I have posted. Please link or posts it. You have posted many personal insults to me, suggesting that I am less than educated, know nothing of the world, etc.
The TRUTH is not an insult! Islam has not done a thing to move humanity forward for 1000 years. Your culture may have been the "cradle of civilization or not. Iraq claims to be that place and the Egyptians tend to think of themselves as the "cradle" too. Although neither one has done a thing in the last 500 years—ditto for Iran! Iran nor ANY Muslim nation has not developed, invented or brought forth ANYTHING in the last 500 years to benefit humanity. But, they take from the West with impunity, bash our way of life and our culture and then want to destroy us with our own technology and freedoms.
In the last two days almost 100 people have AGAIN been murdered by Islam. It will come to you—whether you want to ignore politics or not!
"I came here to just have a respectful debate and learn one thing or two. It seems to me there should be some level of respect towards each other's background in every debate unless we don't mean to have a cohesive and constructive debate."
MEsterners/Muslims constantly want— no— DEMAND "respect" but, they give— none! You have shown me no respect. You have insulted my world view, my education, my travels. You have assumed I am some rube sitting in some backwater American town. Who the HELL do you think you are, WhoMan? You are lucky to be in the West, given that you come from an enemy state.
We too feel it is a waste of time to speak to MEsterners of any stripe. When the going gets tough—they bail. Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out, WhoMan. Another Persian prince (or princess), hiding from reality— violent Islamic reality will come to you no matter what you do to hide.
There are a bunch of effete Persian princes like you hereabouts who whine and complain—but "suffer" for their Iran under their nice lives in the West, while doing nothing for their own nation. It is Muslims and MEsterners who should be cleaning up Islam. But, as is typical of Islam—they will let the dhimmis do it.
What a fake you are!
---
Here AIS is an article on the democrats and their lack of foreign policy:
"A DEMOCRATIC WORLD"
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040216fa_fact1
If the mullahs or any Islamic terrorists are foolish enough to believe that a democratic president will, in this day and age, let them off the hook, they are mistaken!
The Dems are getting stronger and more focused. Bush will get a run for his money. :-)
Wessie
Señor Græd —"All Roads Lead To Rome."
When in Rome. . . do as the Romans do!!!
If you are in the West then you need to respect Western customs.
---
Egypt students protest French ban
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/568D4FE1-ABAA-4DEC-85EF-483331EEB32B.htm
Why don't Muslims, who seem to have nothing better to do, protest Turkey's ban on hijab?
Why don't Westerners protest the mandate of non-Muslim women to have to wear those ugly-making-veils when in an Islamic country?
German State Proposes New Headscarf Ban
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040211/ap_on_re_eu/germany_headscarf_ban
"In Kuala Lumpur, about 40 supporters of the fundamentalist Islamic PAS, the biggest opposition party in mainly Muslim Malaysia, protested against the law outside the French embassy chanting “Long live Islam” and “Crush the infidels.”
---
Islamic hypocrisy! Always wanting special privileges for Muslims. The West is not, Not, NOT Muslim! We don't cover our women with shrouds unless they are dead.
The Islamic head-scarf is a radical political symbol and has little to do with "free speech" or democracy. It is to promote Islam's militancy and the subjugation of women. Muslims should stay in Islamic countries if they want to wear or promote the hijab!
Why don't Muslims worry about their backward situation in the world, their economies, their Islamic terror— Instead of protesting about how the West conducts its business?
"Islamic Democracy" is an oxymoron!
Wessie
Wessie, wanted to reply to your comments from the other page: (I can't seem to post there).
"I have seen fascism up close. Have you?"
- I've seen an islamist terrorist attack up close. Have you?
"When was the last time you were out of the U.S.?"
- Well I was in the US a few weeks ago, but generally I live in Canada.
"Do you speak any foreign language fluently?"
- Yes, one fluently and another one pretty well.
"Have you ever lived abroad?"
- Yep, in central asia for 10 years and the middle east for 3.
"Have you ever spoken at length to people abroad in their own language?"
- Yeppers.
Any more silly questions? I guess you're trying to portray me as inexperienced and naive, while only you know all the answers.
Hmm now for this page:
"Islam has not done a thing to move humanity forward for 1000 years. Your culture may have been the "cradle of civilization or not."
- I'm not sure what you mean by that, people here are Iranian more than Islamic if you haven't noticed, as are the majority within Iran. And "islamic science" back when, was driven by iranian, jewish and indian scientists.
"The Dems are getting stronger and more focused. Bush will get a run for his money. :-) "
- Competition is good. :)
"Any more silly questions? I guess you're trying to portray me as inexperienced and naive, while only you know all the answers."
Turn about is fair play, JFTDMaster. ;-)
You started all this BS on the other thread by trying to categorize me as a "neo-con" and when that didn't seem to fit you decided I must be a "liberal." That didn't work either. You also stated that I didn't understand how fascism worked. That didn't fit either because I have much experience in the land of fascists. Your insinuation that I must not know anything about Islam didn't hold water because I have studied Islam most of my adult life—which is longer than most of the people on this website have been alive. You also insinuated I was not educated and have not travelled. Well, you are also wrong about that. I have advanced degrees, have not only traveled a great deal, but was born abroad (and I don't mean Canada) speak half a dozen languages—several with native fluency.
" And "islamic science" back when, was driven by iranian, jewish and indian scientists."
Yes, indeed— the dhimmis. Islam is not innovative. I have said that for years. It is well known that Islam squelches any sorts of discovery and entrepreneurial spirit. If it were not for the conquered peoples, like the Persians and the Byzantines, Islam would not have been "on top"—when it was on top. Which was a hell of a long time ago—and they have not done anything since! Islam has retreated into itself since 1492 and began its decline about 400 years after its inception.
LOL So, what precisely is your point here, JFTDMaster?
I shall continue to claim that "Islamic Democracy" is an oxymoron! And that GW Bush is an arrogant, intellectually challenged, screw up. The proof is in the pudding which is piling up like so much $#!+ —and stinks to high heaven.
Wessie
When I Love You
When I love you
A new language springs up,
New cities, new countries discovered.
The hours breathe like puppies,
Wheat grows between the pages of books,
Birds fly from your eyes with tiding of honey,
Caravans ride from your breasts carrying Indian herbs,
The mangoes fall all around, the forests catch fire
And Nubian drums beat.
When I love you your breasts shake off their shame,
Turn into lightning and thunder, a sword, a sandy storm.
When I love you the Arab cities leap up and demonstrate
Against the ages of repression
And the ages
Of revenge against the laws of the tribe.
And I, when I love you,
March against ugliness,
Against the kings of salt,
Against the institutionalization of the desert.
And I shall continue to love you until the world flood arrives;
I shall continue to love you untill the world flood arrives.
Nizar Qabbani
Wessie,
Answering your comments would make me cross the line of comment policies in here. You and I can spare the rest from the grunge though. Follow my link. My email address is on my blog. Send me your comments if you want. I'll tell you why I think your opinion is also equally or perhaps more destructive and danagerous to the world than what you think is the problem. I'll tell you why you can't look down on the poeple who you are involved with in a discussion ... unless all you are after is having a monologue. And I'll tell you why you shouldn't get angry when someone uses the same in-your-face tone and stands up to you.
P.S. Are you a university professor? 'Cause I am not a student.
"When I Love You"
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
So now by reciting this poem, you proved to be cosmopolitan ot the melting pot itself:)! That you know so much about the culture! Tell you what! It’s like as if I recited one of Mayakofsky’s poems for a bunch of Russians to prove to them that I know their culture better than them! Give yourself a break! I have feeling that since people don’t bother replying to your comments any more, you think that you have silenced them with your “argument”!
Well, I don’t mind you trying to boast your own ego and feel good about your being “multilingual” with an “advanced” degree, but just to let you know, when I see your comments I don’t even bother reading them and wasting my precious time!
This is what I call “A sea (or if you like to complement yourself, you might as well use “an ocean”) with a depth of one inch”
Good night!
WhoMan, if you want an e-mail from me, you will get old an grey waiting. LOL
"And I'll tell you why you shouldn't get angry when someone uses the same in-your-face tone and stands up to you."
You don't seem to take your own advice, WhoMan. I am not the least bit angry. I don't give a rat's a** WHAT you think. Because you have proven that you don't think at all. You only change the subject.
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"but just to let you know, when I see your comments I don’t even bother reading them and wasting my precious time!. . ."
Ah—well, you appear to have done just that and even posted. Now why is that?
". . .. the Arab cities leap up and demonstrate
Against the ages of repression
And the ages
Of revenge against the laws of the tribe.
. . .March against ugliness,
Against the kings of salt,
Against the institutionalization of the desert."
These are the lines that fascinate me in that poem. Apparently there is not enough "love" in the Arab world, Somebody. Not much in Iran either. But, the mullahs love you all.
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Eye of the Storm: Teheran jamboree
"Militants from some 40 countries across the globe are trekking to Teheran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out.
". . .
The guest list reads like a who's who of global terrorism.
In fact, most of the organizations attending the event, labeled "Ten-Days of Dawn," are branded by the United States and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. These include 17 branches of the Hizbullah, a worldwide militant Shi'ite movement created by Teheran in 1983.
Today, Teheran is a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds. The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Thus militant Sunni organizations, including two linked to al-Qaida - Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party) - enjoy Iranian hospitality. They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organizations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Trotskyites to Guevarists. Teheran today is also the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. . . "
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1074745156578
Good show! You all must be so proud! The Great Satan just can't compete with that.
Talking to MEsterners is like screaming at amoeba in a barrel. ;-) Quite frankly, my dear, I (and others in the world) don't give a damn!
You are fascinating to watch though, spinning around in a circle chasing your tails, lying to yourselves and the world— all the time.
Wessie
"You started all this BS "
- incorrect, my comments are responses to specific things you said
"You also stated that I didn't understand how fascism worked. That didn't fit either because I have much experience in the land of fascists."
- And that proves what?
"Your insinuation that I must not know anything about Islam didn't hold water because I have studied Islam most of my adult life—which is longer than most of the people on this website have been alive."
- I did not insinuate that: what I insinuated is that you do not know everything about islam, and that other people might have some insight as well.
I would also like to insinuate now that you should try to be polite.
"You also insinuated I was not educated and have not travelled."
- I did....?
"I have advanced degrees, have not only traveled a great deal, but was born abroad (and I don't mean Canada) speak half a dozen languages—several with native fluency."
- If I understand correctly this is a place to discuss things... the issue is not that how many pieces of paper you earned, the issue is making convincing arguements. "Insinuating" that everyone on this forum who disagrees with you is incapable of thinking proves what?
I was born and raised in Uzbekistan, I've lived in Israel, so what?
>
- They were not dhimmis, they kept their culture but they also became muslims. The point is that people in Iran are capable of thinking and science and development.
Wessie,
Yout got A LOT of loose tags. Fix'em.
I never said I knew "everything" about Islam. You insulted me, JFTDMaster, REPEATEDLY by claiming I know little about Islam and you threw in a few other insults as well—such as calling me a "neo-con" and a "liberal" and knowing nothing about fascism, etc. But, you being who you are, that does not count. It is only an "insult" if I, a Westerner, retaliate in kind or defend myself— then, your type screams "foul." ;-)
I know a lot more about Islam than many people here, who are atheist. I also know a lot more than those religious Muslims, like Hajir, who pick and choose the "peaceful" passages out of the Muslim Terror Manual the Qur'an, and ignore the hundreds of violent sura that abrogate the few, the handful that say things like, "there is no compulsion in religion."
"They were not dhimmis, they kept their culture but they also became muslims. The point is that people in Iran are capable of thinking and science and development."
Right. Islam makes life impossible for dhimmis who are afforded second class "citizenship." Additionally, the jizya (poll tax) makes life untenable. Thus, conquered peoples become Muslims and then fail to prosper. The issue of no tax for Muslims is also a bit of a problem for a viable state—as evidenced by the legions of failing Islamic states.
That is why they have developed virtually NOTHING in hundreds of years but Islamic terror. When Iranians or other Muslims come to the West, they can think. But, living under Islam, they are not permitted to do so. Wherever Islam rules there is misery, illiteracy, backwardness and despotism. Anything Muslims use for the modern "good life" has come from Western culture, that they of course decry and despise like so many on this website. WhoMan is a good example. S/he lives in the West, but bitches constantly about how terrible life is here. I say—LEAVE! Go to a perfect, Islamic land where the rivers flow with non-intoxicating wine, where serving boys bring translucent raisins and where there is no poverty, illiteracy or crime. Where every person is free to live the "perfect" life of which Muslims dream. LEAVE! If the West is so terrible, go where life is better.
JFTDMaster, why don't you tell us EXACTLY what Muslims have developed either scientifically or otherwise in the last say 500 years. The bomb the Iranians are developing they STOLE from the West. That will move humanity forward won't it—and fast.
Where do you want to be when they drop it—(and they will)—given that you are no longer in Israel? ;-)
"I would also like to insinuate now that you should try to be polite."
I should be "polite" and what should YOU be? I am being exactly like you! You don't seem to like that reflection. Tough! That is typical of MEsterners. They are RUDE and INSULTING, but, pretend their sh** doesn't stink. If one retaliates in kind—they scream "racism" or "bigotry" or some other BS. You stop calling me a "liberal," "neo-con," "know-nothing-about-Islam" or anything else, etc. and we'll talk. ;-)
Turn about is fair play. YOU be polite and we can play. (See below.) Now, why don't you get on WhoMan's case with the issue of being impolite? Or is s/he a member of your tribe and families have to stick together?
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"Yout [sic] got A LOT of loose tags. Fix'em."[sic]
I guess that's supposed to be an insult—again, WhoMan? ;-) But, since you are who you are, it does not count as an insult—right? LOL
Perhaps you are you talking about HTML tags? In which case you should check out your unreadable blog.
You really ought to try focusing on the subject. The subject is: "Getting the government they deserve." Muslims have that and so do Westerners. See?
"Islamic Democracy" is STILL an oxymoron!
What do-nothings you people are. You chase your tails, never getting anything done, still living in medieval misery after hundreds of years—Complain, complain, complain; gripe, gripe, gripe—about everything in the world, with nary a suggestion as to how to fix it. It must be genetic.
Where will you be when the Islamic bomb, dirty or otherwise, hits?—As it surely will! The mullahs are working hard for you. . .
Saving Ourselves From Self-Destruction
By MOHAMED ELBARADEI
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/12/opinion/12ELBA.html?th
The ROOT cause of Islamic terrorism is Islam! That Islamic "paradise" on earth is just around the corner. . . the nuclear corner. @;^}
Wessie
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]Poll tax? A more civilized appraoch as opposed to what Christians did, I'd say.
Throughout the centuries (except the last 50 years) while the rest of Europe was imposing its uncompromising religious and cultural rule on its nonconformist minorities (research for the origion of gypsies in Europe to get some impression of systematic treatment of Jews), religious minorities have always enjoyed relative freedoms in the Islamic region. You can find Jewish, Christian, Zoroasterian neighborhoods in the Iranian conservative cities. Jewish and Christians lived relatively peacefully along Muslims throughout the region without the need to hide their religion something that they have had to do up until fairly recently.. Bill Maher is a Catholic raised from Irish Jewish parents for god's sake.
There were Muslim on Muslim crack-downs in the ME, though, but so were Christian on Christian ones in Europe.
"You insulted me, JFTDMaster, REPEATEDLY by claiming I know little about Islam and you threw in a few other insults as well—such as calling me a "neo-con" and a "liberal" and knowing nothing about fascism, etc. "
- I did not claim you know little about Islam: I claimed that Islam can be reformed/re-interpreted to some extent, I claimed that there are moderate Muslism who are being silenced and oppressed and whom we should help, you claimed I'm wrong. And a "neo-con" might be an insult to you, but I'm a "neo-con". Saying you should be a neo-con is not an insult. I was explaining to you that a "neo-con" often is someone at the political center, which you claim to be. And yet here I am, a "neo-con", telling you that Islam doesn't need to be wiped out? Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of millions of people in the world might die over the next few decades if we we attempt to wipe out Islam instead of supporting real moderates?
"Islam makes life impossible for dhimmis who are afforded second class "citizenship." Additionally, the jizya (poll tax) makes life untenable."
- Jews contributed alot of science to "muslim world" despite being "oppressed" and "dhimmis". In fact, christianity has been oppressive to jews since approximately 1000 AD, much more than the Muslims, so?
Once again: a modern democracy can be made, with Islam as the accepted cultural background instead of the dominant force: that is what people in Iran are likely to do soon anyways. You should support that, instead of trying to insult them. That's the point..
"Now, why don't you get on WhoMan's case with the issue of being impolite? Or is s/he a member of your tribe and families have to stick together?"
- He hasn't insulted me.. and I doubt he's nearly as blond as me.. but who cares.
"a modern democracy can be made, with Islam as the accepted cultural background instead of the dominant force: that is what people in Iran are likely to do soon anyways. You should support that, instead of trying to insult them. That's the point.."
It does not matter what I or you support or believe. The West has helped and supported Muslims for years and it has gotten us nowhere. It is Iranians/Muslims who must make that Islamic democracy. I say it cannot be done! You say it can! So, we agree to disagree and we shall see what happens. Regardless it will not happen in our life times.
" Do you know how many tens if not hundreds of millions of people in the world might die over the next few decades if we we attempt to wipe out Islam instead of supporting real moderates?"
I am talking about EDUCATING not killing. I have said that over and over again. I am against war in general but have no problem using force. Yet, you claimed on the other thread that I would not use force. Why do you always claim I said something else? The proof is still there. Educating! And once they are educated Islam may fade away like other dead myths.
"- Jews contributed alot of science to "muslim world" despite being "oppressed" and "dhimmis". In fact, christianity has been oppressive to jews since approximately 1000 AD, much more than the Muslims, so?"
That was hundreds of years ago. I told you, historically Islam had to let the dhimmi do their thing because otherwise Muslims could not have ruled their huge empire. Today no religion is free under Islam. Islam suppresses and terrorizes the "other." Muslims use the Qur'an as their justification—because the Qur'an says, "kill the unbelievers where you find them."
Just look at Iraq. Already the Muslims are trying to force the Christians to convert or else. (Or else means—death.) In Saudi Arabia no one can practice their own religion. Just try to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia. In Pakistan Hindus and Christians are persecuted and murdered, ditto in Malaysia and Thailand and on and on.
It is a fantasy to believe that Islam is tolerant. Just READ the Qur'an. Islam is militant and misanthropic.
And by the way—to me, "neo-con" is an insult just as "liberal" is an insult. And you certainly used these as insults on the other thread with impunity and quite deliberately.
This is a dead horse. Muslims have to fix their problems. We can talk until we are blue in the face—it won't make a damn bit of difference.
Wessie