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An accusation I heard against the Nobel peace prize is being pro-Judaism or pro-Zionism (although these two are different). A brief look at the list of peace prizewinners shows interesting facts. I thought you might be interested in these numbers:
The Nobel Prize is the first international award given yearly since 1901 for achievements in physics, chemistry, medicine, literature and peace. In 1968, the Sveriges Riksbank (Bank of Sweden) instituted the Prize in Economic Sciences in memory of Alfred Nobel, founder of the Nobel Prize.
Since 1901, 90 individuals and 20 organizations have received the peace prize; 9 of which were Jewish (8%). Only 2 individuals out of these 9 were sole winners of the prize and the other 7 won the prize joint with others.
The percents of Jewish prizewinners in other fields are:
Economy: 40%
Medicine: 28%
Physics: 26%
Chemistry: 18%
Literature: 11%
At least the peace prize doesn’t look like pro- Judaism compared to the others. About the other Nobel prizes, just look around yourself. How many recognized and famous Jewish scientists do you see? I believe these accusations are based on racist and anti-Semitist views.
Just to have some more information, similar percentages for Muslims are:
Peace: 3%
Literature:2%
Chemistry: 1.2%
Medicine: 1%
Physics: 0.5%
Economy: 0%
P.S. These numbers do not support any claim on whether the Nobel Prize is pro-Judaism or not. Further investigation is necessary to make a claim. I am only trying to present some interesting and thinkable facts.
Posting some numbers doesn't show anything by itself. You should look at the percentage of the recognized Jewish economists,physicists, chemists,and so on too. Maybe the high number of prize winners is justified by the high percentage of scientists in those fields. I know quite a few well recognized Jewish economists and physicists.
I think it is not very strange since in the two fields I am familiar with (Mathematics and Education) many of the best scholars are from Israel and/or are Jewish (I usually do not consider the researchers' ethnic background, but this one was so obvious that you didn't need to "look" to "see" it.) So the figures are not surprising, and I do not think it makes the Nobel "non-peace" prize pro-anything. I still cannnot make up my mind about their peace prize though...
If these numbers show anything, it's that jewish people are industrious, successful people in their fields of activity. Anyone in any branch of sciences knows that there are many eminent jewish scientist, the biggest of all probably Albert Einstein. So, once put in its proper context, and taken with the right way of thinking, the numbers are actually quite ellucidating, not disturbing.
Even if the Noble prize is given to some people because they were Jews, still good for jewish people that can actually lobby and influence on different committees and organizations. Poor muslims that they have nothing to say so can't even lobby.
I think this matter is similar to to other issues such as policy of USA that is so peo jewish.you may have heard the speech of the MHATIR MOHAMMAD the prime minister of Malaysia.he pointed out a good thing that the world is governed by small percentage of Jewish.If you look at the number of Jewish in the world and then the number of scholars, you will find out that this percentage of Nobel winners is a high percentage when you compare it with the number of Jewish scholars.As my point of view, I think they are now running the world.If you look at the middle east problem specially in Israel and palestine, you will find out that th reaction of western people to this issue is so stupidly.every resolution of Security Councel becomes Veto by USA.I think somebody should do something.
i guess we have to really look at the education that Jews get when they grow up to see why there are so many of them so successful in science. Several things that comes to mind are as following:
Many of them teach Hebrew to their children. This opens the door to another society which is different from the one that they grow up. They have to read Bible, which has lots of stories and perspectives. They get to learn to discuss those stories(unlike Quran readings, where kids read Quran in Arabic with no idea about what it means).
If I want to point out one thing as the most important factor, I would say their ease in writing and their long history of writing is behind their success.
Somebody should do something nasser? What, blow up a bus full of children? Are you the man for that job?
Stop dreaming of conspiracy... just who the hell "runs the world"?
If you look at the history of academia, the list of prominent Jewish contributors is lengthy, while the list of arab/muslim ones is small. This isn't a "jewish" problem, its an arab one. Perhaps if the arab people as a whole embraced modernity, embraced tolerance for other religions, and embraced peace, that list of reknowned Arab scientist would grow. Just how many PH.Ds in Islamic Philosophy do we really need in this world?
Salaam. "Prosperous are those who rise with wings", says Hazrat Ali (S). My reasoning in regard to Jews is: the path the Jews have taken is not close to "anyone". I consider "Learning" the best way of confronting Jewish-related issues.
Dear Rick,
You don’t seem to be knowing the western history very well!! You seem to have forgotten that the Europeans started their onslaught on the world 200 years ago, killing a lot of indigenous people and enslaving them, they didn’t show a slight sign of tolerance to their religions and customs. You should at least know very well what they did to the natives in America, they basically exterminated them! I remember the first time that I was told about the reason behind the Thanksgiving celebrations in the states; the first thing that came to my mind was that they celebrate the onslaught of the very same people who fed them when they first arrived in this country! Do you know that millions of people were killed by the US in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos? You seem to be very selective in mourning the civilians that are killed unjustly!
Also we as the middlesterns don’t need to be told who we are!! We know who we are!
The history of the human civilization is 10000 years old! Just by being ahead for a few centuries, don’t think the the West has been ahead forever or will stay this way forever!
Certainly we need to have a lot of soul-searching and working on ourselves and our societies, but please don’t think that we need you preaching us from your high ground of morality!
Nasser,
Do you think the number of scholars is more important or their quality? From your comment it seems you care more about the numbers, istead of the the depth. I do not know your academic background, and I am not surprised from your comment. But anyone who cares about research and is actually "doing" it knows quality is more important that quantity. So may be you are right about the numbers, but may be it would be a good idea to look at the quality of Jewish scholars before accusing anyone or group of being pro-jewish.
Categorizing Nobel prize winners based on their ethnic background doesn't seem to me a good idea anyway. I don't think anything constructive could come out of these racial profilings. However obviously this was not the concern of Iman when he was writing this post, having probably quite the opposite in his mind.
Difference breeds distance and distance breeds hate and hate breeds violence: Move on people!
Kaveh, I agree that hate brings violence and destruction but I don’t see anything wrong in an objective study of any ethnic group as long as we respect them and understand that as humans we have a lot more in common.
However, I should say that I become deeply disturbed when I see that people get branded as Anti-Semite when they even mention simple facts about Jews! For example, sometime ago I just mentioned to someone that Hollywood was made by the Jews (which is true! There is a book called “An empire of their own: how the Jews invented Hollywood” by Neal Gabler, and can be checked out from any library I believe!) and I was accused of being Anti-Semite. I think this is very disturbing!!
I think if I were a Jew I would be troubled by seeing that some people try to shut their critics by name calling! I think it would backfire one day! It causes more resentment! As an example I can remind you of a recent incident that a German mp was accusing the Jews of killing a lot of people in the Russian revolution, I can tell you that I know a lot of Germans, especially the new generation, who dislike what they call the Jewish double standards, that no one can criticize the Jews but they can criticize other people! And I think this is very dangerous!
Regarding the above exchange of harsh words among Nasser->Rick->maryam: Nasser's feeling of urge that something should be done seems very unjustified. I sympathize with Rick's concerns about "what" really Nasser means. Nasser's words are very alarming and need proper discussion, which of course depends a lot on his willingness to partake in such a discussion.
As to maryam's account of the history of violence: I guess what you are saying is true to the facts, but it does not represent all of the facts. Granted, Americans--and Europeans--have been involved in quite a few violant conflicts, but they are surely not the only ones. Iranians, Arabs, Africans, and virtually any group of people have had many incidents of violence in their history. And if one plans to counter violence with even more violence, especially if it is not designed to be moving towards a reduction of violence total in the world, the outcome would only be a continuation of our--human species--common violant past.
I thought that this is a free forum babak!!!
If you think, naser or rick or me are wrong, you can argue based on facts!
From what part of my post you concluded that I meant that other groups have not committed crimes!
let me tell you this, just check any hisory book about WW2 and you'll see that most of the historians believe that something went badly wrong in their civilisation that they ended up destroying themselves! just think about it that more than 50 million people were killed in that single war!
The Chinese knew about the powder 1000 years ago but never used it in the battle fields since they considered it coward! But when the Europeans learned about it they thought of it as an effective way of killing!!
Please don't think that I'm upset but stop talking like a father figure who shows up once in a while to correct people!
I suppose this last comment is maryam's, although it seems she, in her haste to pound me, forgot to give us a name. By the way, I had not read maryam's reply to Kaveh at November 1, 2003 03:19 PM, so most of this is in response to maryam's comment at October 31, 2003 05:41 PM, and the ananymous one above.
I believe this is a free forum, too. What that has to do with anything so far said here, I can't understand. I didn't think anything was wrong in your comments. In fact, I said your account of violance in the West was "true to the facts." My only point was that there is more to it than you were implying.
"From what part of my post you concluded that I meant that other groups have not committed crimes!" --From lack of any part in you comment even alluding to this fact.
I'm terribly offended by your tone, which to use your own comparison, is like that of a nagging child. I'm not trying to appear or pose as any figure, and by attacking me personally you have done exactly what you said is not a good thing to do, that is "shut their critics by name calling!"
I'm sorry I won't listen to your order, since its premise, me being a father figure, is totally wrong, and even if it were true, since this is a free forum.
Dear Babak,
I'm sorry if you are offended.
> suppose this last comment is maryam's, although it seems she, in her haste to pound me, forgot to give us a name..
Well, I am doing something else simultanously and I had to leave right away, that's why you didn't see the name! however you didn't need to suppose that the comment was mine! I think it was crystal clear!
In you first comment you mentioned "Nasser->Rick->maryam" and in my response I said "If you think, naser or rick or me are wrong" which is exactly the same order that you had so "me" could not be anything else except "maryam"!!!
Also, in my comment I said "Certainly we need to have a lot of soul-searching and working on ourselves and our societies" which is hinting to the fact that I think we have a lot of faults to work on!which is alluding to the fact that we talked about!!
Certainly you have every right to express yourself I just wish if you could read things more carefully and try to be more specific and objective in your arguements than merely repeating the "general good stuff"!
Anyway, I'm sorry if you felt offended. I have to leave right now and won't be able to use internet until tomorrow, so I hope you don't come up with another theory that I'm afraid of answering you!:)
maryam, I just tried to be on the safe side by "supposing" the ananymous comment was yours, otherwise I was quite sure it was.
Your complete sentence was
This is not, as far as I can tell, an allusion to the fact that we, Iranians, have "committed violence."
Anyway, I'm afraid my whole point was buried under a lot of ash, so here it is again:
This is very specific, in my opinion, and nothing like "the general good stuff."
By the way, when did I say you didn't put your name, since you were afarid? Hm... I'll wait for you response tomorrow then.
Assertions such as the one in this article and some of its comments are simply not worthy of any response, they need treatment by professional helpers rather than disputing and discussion.However this raises two important, somewhat related issues: Namely the reason for Jews' success in the intellectual arena and the real roots of antisemitism. A deeper look is needed to give a satisfying answer.
In my view, Judaism was the result of an immense innovation back in history, a collective endeavour to refuse the pagan traditions and worldviews of the time and striving for higher ideals of freedom and uncompromising moral life in an immoral world.. The key to its success was the perseverence and continuation of this struggle despite all the odds for generation after generation. By gradual shift from a tribal mentality to that of a nation born around an ideal, this 'experiment' proved to be the only succesful one in history that I know of. As a by product, there were many failed pagan imitations with catastrophic historical backlashes afterwards-the consequences of which we all suffer from- Christianity, Islam and Communism being some of the most conspicuous examples so far. That is the main origin of antisemtism as far as I can see, much worsened by the two 'daughter' religions' insecurity towards the original template and desire for 'matricide' to justify their own 'originality' and to replace the real original. As long as Judaism existed independently, they would always remain 'imitations'. Hence Jews are accused and convicted by both offsprings for 'rejecting' the new imitations, be it Jesus as Christ or Muhammad as the promised 'last prophet'. The rest of course is history.
Having 'imported' that worldview as a set of dogmas at the beginning of their 'religion's into other cultures alien to it, unprepared and lacking the long historical and cultural backhground that produced it, there was always naturally the need to 'force' those religions' athourity through fear, persectution and continuous attempts of freezing the societies against any progress or natural evolution. As a result the children raised in such societies who had to and in many places still have to shed aside all the impinging 'brainwashings' aside, if they manage to continue their intellectual growth. Most other cultures also have been steeped with mysticisms and unwordlinesses as the natural ending point of the old pagan traditions against which Judaism started as a new way.
Where as Judaism continued to florish and evolve to higher levels of sophistication and depth, for here the ideals where in their natural environment where they had evolved organically, and in the middle ages gave rise to an unprecedented 'obsession' with education at a national level which led to an entire society constatnly valueing reading and studying, from the ones in the lowest to the highest positions and professions- and that during a time period where, among other nations, literacy was a luxury of an infinitesmial section of the people. (At first this concerend only the Torah (that was codified *very* early during the period of establishment of this 'new' culture mentioned above) and later its various traditions of interpretation and related topics.)
Being the prime target of all kinds of bigotries, fanaticisms and savageries for almot two millenia further led them to value open-mindedness, free discourse and human morality. Hence their unprecedented success in academic and intellectual fields and in moral life in modern times that evokes such envy and hatred in certain mentalities....
Here is also an interesting analysis of antisemitism:
http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/index.htm
Interestingly, the only other culture that I know of that somewhat resembles Judaism in its morality and high education rate is Zoroastrianism. The similarities can also partly account for the close realtions between Jews and Persians in the ancient times, for which we Iranians have to be very proud I must add. The realization of this fact and the dangers it has for the Islamofascistic system ruling Iran today has been recently the source of focus by their 'intellectual(!)' agents. A series of recently published infamous books about Iranian history 'proving' Jewish hands in the fromation of Zoroastrianism and Persian identity(!)-it goes so far as claiming the word 'Pars' comes from the barking of dogs, picture the rest yourselves- is an example of their fears of a mass realization of our enviable past.
["Well, I read it;" you might say, "now let's close it!"]O and in case some of you are formingideas I must add that I am not Jewish. I consider myself a free thinker in search of uncensored truth, but officially I'm Moslem.
As a side note: this joke of "jews ruling the world through control of the media and people's minds",all the different versions of it -and other similar ones like the American government , the imperialists...always reminds me of another joke: One of the private institutions for preperation of Concourse (Iranian highly competitive university entrance exam) once advertised in the papers guaranteeing a rank below 1000 for its students..and 2000 people registered!
9 out of 10 people claim this crap nowadays; makes you wonder who is left to be brainwashed anyway?!
Maryam,
There is nothing wrong with 'critisizing' Jews or Israel. But it gets almost automatically more than criticism shortly after.
the same is not true of Germans, Iranians or others. In the case of the jews, there are two millenia of conotations that come into play, partly existing in the religious mentality of those making them. That's why they are so sensitive and it makes sense.
(oops I pressed 'enter' by mistake)
just take the fact that they are usually denied the right of having an independent nation state for themsleves as an example of the importance of past prejudices....
There is some explanation I perhaps must give about the link in my comment. I do not agree with all its contents. It is obviously written in a religious orthodox Jewish framework. Terms such as Torah "given" on Sinai or Jews being the messengers of morality to the world... are religious talk and therefore simply not true!
The origins of modern morality seem to have emerged independently in various places in and around 2500 years ago, including Persia, Greece (the Hellenistic world) , India, China and Israel. However usually it led to abstract notions and doctrins with little outward practices or to mystic nonesense as I argued in my comment. As far as I know it was only in Judaism that it survived in an unbroken line, with emphasis being put into REAL LIFE practice and in the formation of culture and nationhood and it was the Jewish origin that had the greatest influence on its propogation around the world. No where else did it become the very foundations of a culture. In that sense I agree with the general point of the above link, after the usual religious mumbo-jumbo overtone is excluded from the last part of it. It also has some of the most remarkable analysis of common anti-semitism arguments- like the one under discussion here- that I know of. I just thought I better make this point clear beforehand to avoid possible misuderstandings.
OK, I read the article again now and this time it seemed to be directed against the idiots in Iranian regime who claim the peace prize given to Ebadi was a zionist plot or something of that kind. So I take back what I said about the remarks in the article, and apologize, but it still holds for some of the comments!!
Sorry for the continuing flow of comments! :)
But here I found a better, non religious analysis of antisemitism that is simply great:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/sharansky.html
(I found it the link in lgf weblog)
Take a look!
Dear AIS,
I have read some about the history of Judaism and I agree with some parts of your argument. However I think what you suggest as a reason behind Anti-Semitism is not true, it’s like Bush coming out after 9/11 and saying that the terrorists did that because they hate freedom! (unless you think the same way!).
I don’t have time right now and can not write in more details but I’d like to tell you of an article in the Guardian that I saw today, (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1076084,00.html). It‘s based on an unpublished poll of 7500 Europeans in which the majority described Israel as the top threat to the world peace! Now I think that some of the EU countries are more democratic in comparison with the US (regarding their way of practicing democracy!) and you can not claim that they have been brainwashed by the Mullahs in Iran!!
I think the problem is much deeper and different from what you suggest (that the Jews are hated because they were the first who brought life to the darkness in the history…..) I should say that part of your argument reminded me of the preface of a book called “The history of the Iranian Jews” by Habib Levy !
If you read the link I gave in the comment right above you, you'd see that there is nothing surprising in the Europeans' attitude. Europe has ALWAYS been a center for anti-semitism, but now after the Holocauust, it takes subtler forms.
Europeans democracy is also a far from anything praiseworthy when it comes to their foreign policy. Actually it sucks!
(Just look at their attitude towards the Mullahs)
Also take note that the US was the world's first modern democracy. That the too much spoken of French revolution was inspired and turned out to be a bad copy of the American revolution, that most parts of Europe are democratic only after American intervention from Germany and Italy to easter Europe!
I realize the Anti-americanism in a big part of Iranian inteelctuals, aftyer all we were just below the USSR for a long time and those bastards invested a lot on propaganda, but really it is time to start reeasoning again....
I am a bit surprized about your remark on Bush and terrorists...what do you think the reason is, that they LOVE freedom?!!
I think this stark situation can be remedied by instituting a Muslim Nobel Prize. This method has worked successfully in similar contexts.
Here's a proposal: Muslim countries put a fund together and call it, um, any prominent *and* contemporary muslim scientist? I can't think of any now, so imagine it's X. The fund will give the X Prize *only* to Muslim scholars in 3 or 4 different fields each year and also a booby prize to a Jewish (or someone semitic who can pass for a Jew, even though he's not a Jew).
That should make us feel better. :-)
Something that I'm not sure if you guys also noticed or not is that the Jewish population of the world is far far smaller than the Muslim population. This fact would make us look even worse. :-) You should in fact calculate the percentages like this: What proportion of Jews have won the Nobel Prize and what fraction of Muslims? Then compare the numbers.
A mullah once had said that if each Muslim grabs a bucket, fill it with water, and empty it, then the whole Israel will be flooded and washed away from the face of earth. Never getting the chance to verify this claim, I have always wondered why Muslim of the world just don't fo that. Let's go find some buckets dudes.
Dear Senior Grad,
Sometimes the border between satire, criticism , and hate becomes blurry and is up to the reader to set up. I wish you'd clarify that your last comments were indeed jokes otherwise I am sure those comments could be interpreted as offensive to many people.
Dear Kaveh Kh.,
I actually had an email from a friend who pointed that out to me, so I rushed to the FToI site to correct it, only to find out that you had almost done it already. Internet is a horrible medium for communicating. Smileys help to *some* extent in order to convey the innuendos that are deleted when you write something, rather than say it in person with all the accompanying facial gestures. But my careless over-use of the standard smiley ( :,-,) ) adds to the ambiguity.
When writing that comment last night, I was not aware of its other possible interpretations, so I appreciate the fact that you brought it up here. To clarify, that mullah's "solution" refers to the fact that even though Muslims of the world greatly outnumber the Jews of Israel they cannot take back the "occupied territory". His "solution" (buckets), therefore, is not meant to be taken literally. In my comment above, in order to make fun of his idea, I did take his solution literally and therefore made a joke out of it.
In the email I received, I was politely asked about my anti-semitic inclinations! I hereby deny any such racist tendencies. Many of my comments in this forum are clear witness to this. I am sorry, NOT for offending anyone (because I didn't offend anyone: Offending requires an element of intention), but for writing things without twice thinking about their secondary meanings.
Kaveh,
Can I ask you a question? It seems there are double standards in your comment policy. Why dont you ask others who use racist literature in their comments to be more considerate?