Kaveh,

Thanks a lot for bringing up this issue. I actually wanted to write something about it, but I was so busy.
It's really frustrating now. Every morning I check my email hoping that there is some good news from my friends who are stuck back home. ("stuck" is maybe not a good word to use, but is it something else?)

I've heard that even some Reps and Senators have contacted US embassies on behalf of students and faculties who are waiting but they've been said that the source of the problem is in Washington.

Unfortunately we can't do anything about it. (signing the petition may help though.)

I applied for US visa in April 03 to attend a conference in June. The visa was not ready in time and I missed the conference. That wasn't really a problem since a colleague presented the work and our manuscript published in the proceeding.

The funny point is that as a curiosity I called the US consulate two weeks ago to enquire about my visa. The lady said that it is not ready yet please call next week!!!

I wonder what kind of stupid process it is that takes 6 months for a visa?! These guys are really paranoid!

Believe it or not, it is not clear for most of Americans that visitors/immigrants contribute greatly to the United States. They don't see it as something that benefit both sides, people who come here and Americans who are born here. As a result, visa has been treated as a privilege that is given to foreigners, and they should not be complaining.

Another factor is that there is no pressure mechanism on the State Dept or INS(now under Home Land Security Dept) to improve the visa system. Since people who suffer from the deficiencies do not have any political power to pressure the system to correct itself. Ok, there are universities and high tech companies who are not happy about the situation, but for them it is not as the first priority that needs to be answered. Also, in the current climate, it is very difficult to argue that in fact letting foreign scientist to come to this country still benefits this country.

It is even more frustrating when you see that people do not have any ability to distinguish between a 25-year-old eager Saudi mathematician who has been admitted to a graduate program with a 40-year-old umemployed Egyption who has 10 years missing on his resume and is coming to learn English.

yahya is right!! see what I found! ;-)

"As the world economy becomes more globalized, the United States has become increasingly dependent on the skills of the international students who gain advanced degrees in the hard sciences."

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/022/skandera.html

Dear SG,

What I meant in my comment was that the public think foreign immigrant are not useful not the people in academic institutions. However, there still exist inviduals in academic institutions that argue, using vague statistics, that foreign students don't benefit America:

"And to whose benefit? A study by the National Academy of Sciences concluded that all of the immigration over the past few decades increased the income accruing to natives by less than $10 billion a year. Of that $10 billion contribution, very little ? less than $1 billion ? can be attributed to foreign students, who account for less than 2 percent of all permanent immigrants.

The net gain to the country may be small ? but the higher-education industry can benefit substantially. Foreign students are an important part of the workforce in many universities. Wages and salaries in this sector are around $50 billion annually. If the huge influx of foreign-student workers lowered wages by only 5 percent, the payroll savings would be around $2 billion each year, transferring a significant amount of wealth from workers to management in that industry.

Taxpayers also lose. The tuition that colleges charge is not typically enough to cover the cost of an education. Gordon Winston, former provost of Williams College, estimates that the average per-student subsidy is $6,400 in private universities and $9,200 in public universities. The 275,000 foreign students enrolled in public institutions are subsidized to the tune of $2.5 billion a year. This subsidy is so large that the foreign-student program may actually generate a net loss for the U.S..."

Read it from the source:
Rethinking Foreign Students by G.J.Borjas

thanks to yaha for the article.
something nice to note:
"Professor Borjas was born in Havana, Cuba in 1950, and migrated to the United States in October 1962"

I think it would be better if the pettion is sent to US National academy of science instead of that long list.

I realize this impacts y'all directly, and that the actual administration of this policy leaves a lot to be desired (timeliness, etc.).

However, as somebody who lives in Washington, I am impacted directly too and am more happy with them erring on the side of caution. The September 11 hijackers came to the US abusing the visa system, and it seems like common sense to bring more scrutiny to bear in this area.

Common sense yes. But there is a difference between indefinite policies and higher level of security as you have mentioned. Security is one thing [detailed and accurate backgroundchecks] and CAN be put into a framework instead of indefinite and elaborate beaurocracies that can always be fooled.

I guess I don't see the difference in your distinction. Could you explain your distinction in concrete terms of how it applies to the visa system?

Common Sense -> detailed and more accurate background checks, especially now with their unified system, this should be easier; It would be very good if they also put an "average time limit" on these processes and would be nice if they are accountable for it. That is what the RCMP(Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an FBI clone in Canada) does for background check routines.

However, if I were American, from a nation [still] victim of terrorism, I would also prefer erring on the side of caution. I think those atrocities have caused a lot of individualism in the American Society to vanish, and people have become more conscious of their role in the society and their society as an entity that they have to protect. In a moral context this sounds good, but I wish [not that it should be, just wish] people [and not statesmen] would come to realize that just as no individual can obtain security and welfare [in the modern era] on their own, no society can either.

Dear Dan:

I respectfully beg to differ with your broad generalization that the hijackers of September 11th had abused the US Visa system.

First, a majority of hijackers were in the United States legally. Elements in the FBI had already warned against issuing visa for some of the hijackers and no one listened to them. You can basically to the US Congress's website and look at the testimonies for yourself.
So there was a way of preventing the attacks, but "Arrogance of the United States" was the major perventer of it.
Be ware that I am not blaming the victims for the crimes of the criminal, you can look at my views on this issue under: (http://freethoughts.org/archives/000123.html). I am asserting that the US officials failed to do their job properly and protect their citizens and I still believe they are still failing their citizens.

The United States of America is still incapable of conducting background checks properly, especially of those who are in the most sensitive places. One recent example is the convert American Muslim who is now found to be, who apparently a Syrian spy, and almost everybody in the intelligence and the Army knew he had spent five years in Syria. It is disgraceful for the US intelligence for failing to identify this person much earlier.

I appreciate paranoia and its causes, but Americans have failed to devise proper screening system in the first place, and honsetly that has much to do with the fact that they support extremely corrupt and inefficient Arab regimes, and/or Pakistan, whose intelligence and legal system authorities can be easily bought by Usamah sympathizers and in fact provide incorrect information.

The United States is in a catch 22 situation with respect to Arabs for sure.

But why Iranians are treated like that? As far as history shows, Iranians have never attacked American interests or Americans outside Iran. Well, I concede that the Hezbollah, that was backed by Iran's Islamic regime, attacked the Marines' Headquarters in Lebanon in the early 1980s but nothing to that effect has been committed against Americans or American interests by the Iranians or Iranian backed groups.

I find American INS's harrassement of Iranians in this regard absolutely baffling, if not completely unreasonable. The same goes for the general treatment of Iranians who want to reside in North America by both of the American and Canadian security services.

Nonetheless, perhas one can explain this attitude towards Iranians due to two factors: an exteremly incompetent and terrorist Islamic regime, and that, let's face it: Americans have always had difficulty distinguishing between Persians and Arabs and they cannot understand why Iranians are culturally less prone to commit september 11th type of atrocities against anybody else, than non-Arab fanatic mulism such as Pakistanis or Indonesian radicals as well as fanatic Arabs.

I am sure many Muslim Iranians would raise objections with the usual [and overused and useless] examples from Quran against your last sentences. Nonetheless, it is good that you pointed to them.

Grand Vizier

I sincerely accept your most gracious reminder; Your most noble cautionary intervention is noted.

I hereby retract the overgeneralization regarding the last three lines of my previous comment.

I am an Iranian and I know Iranians up-close and I somehow find it hard to think of some dude who is both Iranian *and* willing to blow himself up for the cause of Islam, the way 9/11 terrorists did or Palestinian suicide bombers do. Can you?

I meant: Can you guys imagine such a person? It just doesn't add up!

SG and saoshyant,

20 years ago, there was not just one Iranian who was ready to blow himself up, but there were 500,000 of them. They would be given a hand grenade or sometimes nothing at all and would be asked to march to Iraqi frontlines during Iran-Iraq war in order to create fear and chaos in Iraqi frontline. Many of them would perish on mine fields before seeing a single Iraqi soldier. This was no problem for them because they were there to be a martyr. It was the sooner the better for them.

We don't see any of them today. Not because Iranians today have some intrinsic tendency not to become a suicide bomber, simply because the circumstances have changed and the culture has changed significantly. Threats to the nation have reduced as well.

However, I have to say that there are still people in Iran, quite in minority, who still dream about martyrdom seeking operations.
That is why I think a certain level background checking should be in place for Iranians, this would be safer for America and certainly much much safer for Iranian dissidents.

Also, I think when Iranians are trying to suggest changes in visa regulations should not base their arguments on their difference with Arabs or Pakistanis. If I were an American and would hear this type of arguments, I would say these people don't deserve to come here because they want to get their visas easier at the cost of others who happen to be very similar to them.

Good points you raised, yahya. I remember those times that you are talking about when volunteers would go (or sent?!) to the mine fields during a war with an enemy that was supported by the US! I think I also understand what you mean by advising us not to compare ourselves with others so that we may be given easier visas. One problem you overlook, however, is that even prior to 9/11 the visa regulation for Iranians was quite long and frustrating. Almost half of my friends who tried to come to the US for graduate school prior to 9/11 would return home empty-handed from Cyprus, Dubai, and Turkey. (Is Dubai a city or a country? I never figured it out!) So now thanks to what *others* did, it's only become harder for us to argue for simplifying the issuance of visa for Iranians.

The visa problem is not to be taken lightly. It affects the life of us all who are "stranded" in America because we're given ONE-ENTRY visas (and why not multiple? Could a non-terorist student turn to a terrorist after he leaves America for a short time?) in a most drastic way. For example, a student whose parents are old must be worrying day and night about whether s/he will be able to see them again or not. This, and other scenarios that we're now used to and have come to accept as the "natural" price that we must pay for living in America, affect our lives in more ways than we usually notice.

Well, Dear Yahya,

You should be right in that but I just wondered Iranians could be less prone to do such thing, just because there are no reports of Iranian suicide bombers attacking American interests, nor have I heard of Iranian suicide bombers attacking Israeli interests (the Jewish Community Centre Bombing in Boenos Aires was just a bombing, not a suicide attack, point of information)

I still do not think broad generalization are correct, so I retracted my previous comment.

Now upon these exchanges, I have new questions. If becoming a suicide bomber is something as unpredictable that people would not even know they are suicide bombers until they are told, as we hear such stories from the Media, I am just wondering what kind of a screenging system can relatively immunize the US?

One of my problems with the visa regulations is its politicalization. The delays have little to do with the security. Many of you know that it is still much harder for Iranians to come here that citizens of the countries from whom 911 hijackers originated. And this has to do with the politicalization of the process.

The State Dept considers visa as tool of diplomacy. When the relationship is not good with a certain country, it reduces the visa quota. This is done about Iran quite often. Many know that the difficulty of getting a U.S. visa changes by the season. Whenever there is some secret deal going on with Iranian government, it gets easier and whenever Iran-US relation is bad, getting visa becomes hard. This has to do with very faulty assumption that politicians have in the State Dept. They think if they punish the people then that would get transfered to the government of Iran. We know that this is not true at all. Iranian government doesn't care at all about what is happening to its citizens. In fact, if Iranians go back and forth between Iran and America, they can correct the wrong perceptions about the West or Democracy and this can help Iran to move toward a more democratic system and this would be far more dangerous for Iranian government.

Next time when we visit Iran, we might be able to
get our visa in Iraq. It seems that US embassy has started working there. Apparently, Hoseein Khomeini got his visa there:

Hossein Khomeini Comes to America

From what I heard from people who visited Iraq from Iran recently, it takes $3 to go from Iran's border to Karbala, which is in middle-south of Iraq and motels cost $4 per night there. Considering the fact that Baghdad is closer to Iran's border the cost of travel might be even cheaper. This would make applying for visa much easier. There won't be a need to go to Dubai or Cyprus. And also you can get a free pilgrimage to
Shiite holy sites:)

SG:

AbuDhabi is regarded as the capital of the UAE, nonetheless Dubai is the home to one of its seven emirates and it is today the biggest free trade, and almost trade of everything, in the Forever Persian Gulf.

I don't know about you guys, but I personally prefer going to Afghanistan for getting my visa. Not only I can speak my language there, I could pay a visit in my way to Imam Reza (the "local" Shiite holy site), Omar Khayyam and Ferdowsi of Tus. :-)

I'm also Iranian, and I happen to know an "Iranian" who did blow himself up for some radical cause:
"hoseyn e fahmide"

I have a question from those of you who live in US/Canada and have to deal with this "Visa Problem": [It's only for my own further knowledge, cause I've never been there and never had that problem...]

Whats so special about living there? I mean, is it enough gain to make it worthy after all? (It should be, I guess!! Actually, all tickets to US seem to be one-way!)

Poor Hossein Fahmideh who blew himself up to save his country under Saddam Hussein’s attack and people commemorate him this way. Poor Hossein fahmideh who became one the many victims of mullah’s government propaganda during war...

Mehrad: I guess your question would be more difficult to answer in the case of the USA, but as regards Canada, *my* answer is a big `yes!'

I have a problem with the example of Husseine Fahmideh and I fail to find it a good example:

Husseineh Fahmideh blew himself for a radical cause: defending his country and this happened in the very early stage of the war. Other so-called martyrs did do that for other reasons or reasons of exagerated magnitude, such as liberating Jerusalem after 1982, but not against Americans or Israelis, AGAINST THEIR FELLOW MUSLIM ARAB IRAQI ENEMY.

Has any Iranian, or group of Iranians under the orders of the Islamic regime of Iran, known and/or accused of committing "suicide attacks" against Israel and/or the United States of America in general, and Israelis or Americans in particular?

I do not think so, I have not heard even of one case reported by the Media or accusation raised by Israelis and Americans.

I am now becoming more confident, I know of Arabs who have committed suicide attacks against Israel or America, but I do not know of any Iranian who is reported to have committed, or purused by the US and Israel for committing this type of crime.

Suicide Bombing is an invention of Yasser Arafat and for a long time was a Palestinian heritage until their brothers in other Arabic lands also joined the camp.
As all of us know, the Mullahs are a key factor in supporting suicide bombers and other terrorists in Lebanon and among Palestinians (and probably elsewhere)-but what is usually ignored is the role Palestinians played in producing 'political Mullahs' in Iran in the first place as well as training other terrorist band and gangs before the revolution, such as Mujahedin-e Khalgh and Fadayian-e Khalgh.
So I agree with Saoshyant, suicide bombings are more or less an Arabic and Sunni Islamic phenomena and the beginning of it's Iranian/shiite fraction was also heavily influenced by them.

BTW, isn't going to Iraq made forbidden for Iranians again, after the infiltration of IRI elements to Iraq to cause unrest (and God knows what else)? Duabi and Turkey still seem the places to go for a visa.

Let’s get one thing straight, lads.

We are told that Hossain Fahmideh, a 13-year-old boy from Karaj, tied a grenade to his waist and then dived under an Iraqi tank. I'm not gonna argue whether this funny story is true or not, but for all I know, grenades are for THROWING, and it's utter madness to accompany a grenade under the enemy's tank! If that blasted fool was using the grenade to hit the Iraqis, then all he had to do was to release the detonator and then fling it at them with might and main!!?? It seems that Fahmideh has deliberately committed suicide, which is regarded as an unpardonable sin in his religion. And by killing himself he actually lost the opportunity to destroy any further tanks, didn't he?

But he must be given some credit, though: he's pulled off the impossible feat of making Palestinian suicide bombers look wise and reasonable (fahmideh) in comparison with himself!

What an idiot!!

With all due respect for the real soldiers and volunteers who gave life and limb to liberate the soil of this country,

Ali Mahani
September 27

Fahmideh: an idiot?! I wouldn't go that far, Ali.

I don't know about the exact circumstances of Hossein Fahmideh's death, but I remember the way the story was told during the war and how he was glorified by the leader of the revolution (Didn't he once say "our leader is the 13 year old kid who..."?) and the media and all the war-related propaganda. This actually (and ironically) proves exactly what I had claimed. That Iranians are not suicide bomber material: There was only one such case reported and it was not against civilians. It was an *exception*. Why don't we remember the names of all those non-Iranian suicide bombers who blew themselves up for their fanatical cause? Simply because there are too many of them! Again, let me ask you this: what are the chances of having an Iranian lad (thanks for British slang, Ali!) committing suicide for a cause these days?

Frankly, the only Iranians I know that are capable of such deeds may be found from among MKO members, some of who recently set themselves ablaze for an utterly stupid reason. Now, *that* is plain insane.

Mehrad asked (and I paraphrase): Is it worth the hassle to leave Iran and go to North America for studying or staying?

If I had time I could write a little book about the pros and cons of living in America. (Others may even be able to write bigger books.) I'm surprised that Babak's answer to your question is an emphatic yes. I myself would be a lot more ambivalent, as I think most Iranians who live here are. When two or more Iranians meet in America, their topic of discussion gravitates towards whether Iran is "better" or America. We simply can't decide and I presume most of us go through the torture of making up our mind about this thorny issue. However, more often than not, the years pass and we stay, unable to make up our mind, and we take roots (family, new friends, children) and we succumb to what we've drifted into.

This makes me laugh out loud.

An Iranian wishes to snap at the lack of freedom in the U.S. Surely there is another government which you could complain about. Surely someone from a region of government-sponsored intolerance and radical religious conservatism knows of another nation to take up a fight with.

Surely you don't have the nerve, out of all the places in the world, to complain that the U.S. has a lack of freedom.

I read this posting very late so my notes may be a little bit late but anyway I am going to share them with you. I have recently come to the USA (to be exact I have been here only for 40 days). I have had some experiences that may relate to this topic. I guess the first thing I should say is the about the Visa process. Well I went to the consulate in Dubai had a less than a minute interview and they issued my Visa in less than 20 days!! I don’t know why but the same day they rejected many other students having admission from very good universities (I dare say best). So everything started fine. Since I have been here I have seen two completely different attitudes towards Iranians. In the airport (JFK) the officer in charge of the so called “Special Registration” nearly apologized me every time he was asking one of those special questions e.g. One of the things he asked me was my mother’s date of birth and I told him that I don’t know he just replied “say something just remember to say the same thing next time” and something he said frequently was this: “I don’t know why we are going through this waste of time so let us finish it fast”. I have 2 roommates here in NY and I’m not sure if anyone has experienced this combination of roommates before: one from the USA, the other from ISAREL, and me from IRAN. I have been sharing my experience in NY with them nearly every night. My American roommate just keeps apologizing for the attitude of the officials towards Iranians (He is NOT Democrat). Once we were discussing this issue of “Special Registration” my Israeli roommate justified it this way: Think that you come from a country that the USA does not have any relations with. You are a new guy here they have no records of you and they can not enquire for your past form your country. But if for example you are from France they can easily ask the French government for a background check on you. So it somewhat makes sense they try to identify you. I am not saying he was right but he has a sound logic behind this line of reasoning (We talked about 3 or 4 hours this was just an example). This is the one I refer to as “American People Attitude towards the Axis of Evil People (or at least Iranians)” which is totally different from the “Administration Attitude”. I think we should distinguish these two but any way as it seems Democracy is working in the USA I wonder either my samples of Normal People has been biased or something happens when you add all these good attitudes. I just wanted to share my short experience with you and since I have gone through all of them recently I thought maybe my experience would be kind of fresh.

Who has mentionned lack of freedom? Read more, my dear Watson! ridiculo ipsa ridicula!

Dear ASDF:

Pursuant to our Grand Vizier most gracious intervention, I must add that you, perhaps like many other people in the Western world, should immediately find who planned education in the area where you did your schooling.

It is most probable that you are a victim of Nixon's underfunded educational system or Reagan's cuts in the 1980s.

Reading comprehension is not just an ESL problem, there are a lot of people who have had 8 years of schooling in the Western world and cannot read.

I will be more than happy to help you out with that, and I am not being sarcastic whatsoever.

If your reading skills are good, I propose you start doing some meditation and/or Yoga instead. Watching Dr. Phil can most certainly be of help as well.

If you do either of the above, working on your reading skills and/or gaining some skills in practising patience, I assure you will figure out what we are talking about.

By the way! you do not need to be shy at all, YOU CAN ALWAYS LEAVE YOUR EMAIL FOR THE PURPOSES OF COMMUNICATION, First, because you can always come up with a webmail free of charge with a pseudonym, and Second, because English is a second language for most of us, as per reading.

As per patience, well Dalai Lama just met with President Bush recently, so I am confident help in that regard should be promptly in your vicinity.

You will gain a lot of nerve as a result either way and will also realize that we all value freedom and in general have no problem with Freedom in the US (and this one is indeed meant to be sarcastic, if you have any doubts)!

As I said, Senior Grad, it's *my* answer. The basic reason for it is that I can't imagine living in the Iran I left 3 years ago any longer, particularly under the circumstances I left. In fact, I had my doubts until I went back after 15 months. In that 15-month period I would feel I missed many corners and streets of my home city of Tehran, and also many other beautiful places, from thick green jungles of north to the gray mountains of Alborz and Zagros to the hemispherical domes of Yazd by the desert. I still do miss some of those I mentioned above, you see. But when I went back in the Christmas holidays of 2001, I found out it wasn't the actual places I was missing, but their *memory*. I missed, and still do, not the space but the space-time event that I had registered in my mind. I miss some of the people I know (and knew), especially my family. But most of my freinds are now abroad, scaterred about the globe--probably for a common reason as that of my departure. So, all in all, I have no *personal* reason to go back, now, when faced with the big dilemma of every day life in Iran (from the most basic freedoms, to the problems of economy).

But I do understand the frustration in deciding to stay abroad: fitting into a new culture and language, and filling in the sometimes huge crack of space-time that is generated by the experience of immigration->emigration, ... .

FYI,
If you've not read it before, a congressman introduced a bill to expell all iranians with student or visitor visa from the US.
http://www.iranianamericanpac.org/news/detail.php?str=yU2q5HqL4y7E6M7Y

I'm glad for you, Babak S, who have reached a stable condition so fast. If I were sure that I can live in a metropolitan city in North America as long as I would like to and pay a visit to my family back in Iran whenever I desired to, I too would surely rather stay here. But let me ask you this: Would you rather live the rest of your life in a god-forsaken small town in Saskatchewan or live in Tehran?! By asking this question, I'm just trying to suggest that one may not easily opt for one or the other alternative (i.e. living in Iran vs living abroad), because of the number of variables involved are too many.

In any case, I think you should cherish the fact that at least *for now* you've reached a level of contentment. I think I sort of understand the immigrant / emigré division, but your space-time justification is way above my head! All I know is one cannot possibly miss the *memory* of a thing, because in order to miss something you first need to remember it! I think "missing something" can very well refer to a non-re-livable event that we have experienced in the past, and yes, by going back to that space we only *hope* to re-live the experience: to be the little child who used to playing in the yard of that kindergarten again.

This, however, may not take place. We often miss something (or someone) that (or who) has forever changed. The pleasant event in space-time that is registered in our memory is no longer reachable outside our dreams and daydreams, nevertheless trying to bring those memories to life by re-visiting the places that they have been formed can be a bitter-sweet experience. Why do we mark the graves of our dead? Why do we value monuments from a time when we ourselves were not present? Isn't it the illusion of re-living an experience, the wonder how it must have felt to sit all by yourself by the reflecting pool in Isfahan's Chehel-Sotoon ages ago and reflect, that is the point of re-visiting the symbols of our origins?

All right, I was carried away a little bit and might have added some nonsense, for which I apologize, and wait for you guys to kindly correct my faults. :-)

I wonder how come this discussion didn't come up after my posts! Just kidding!

I feel the same as Babak about missing memories in places rather than places themselves. That’s what usually called “Nostalgia”.

BTW, the usage of the word “we” is quite interesting in Mr. Senior Grad’s last comment (I hope he’s not generalizing). I don’t know where Mr. Senior Grad lives (my wild guess is DC), but where I happen to reside is not a big nor a small city in New England which has very nice café shops with river views (beside other things of course). Although I still like to live in a city like New York or San Francisco (and I day-dream about it too actually) or even Washington, but I’m quite happy with it and I think it suits my life as a graduate student. About Tehran, I don’t day-dream and memories I have from there don’t make me either.

Although I agree with him on the fact that people are different and like different things. And surly the number of variables involved is too many.
At the end, just a suggestion: what about thinking stuff we say over first and not knowingly wait for other people to correct us?

Do you really think this petition will change Bush's views and result in changes in the procedures? Remember he did not change his mind when all over the world people were screaming against the recent war!
If I were to initialize a petition for this purpose, I would restrict it just to professors at US universities with a US citizenship, they can argue that their research is harmed by losing more and more Iranian students. Bush may listen to US citizens, who are defending their own interests.

Kaveh: I think you see the dilemma. If there is a time limit to the visa procedures then that is by its nature not erring on the side of caution. You go on to argue about the personal costs of increased or wrong-headed security measures, which seems like a useful exercise. Unfortunately, it's easy to measure the economic downside to an attack the size of 9/11 in the range of several hundreds of billions of dollars as whole and thousands of dollars for your average household, while it's difficult if not impossible to measure the full downside of reduced individualism and working with others for security. It's difficult for both the experts and ordinary voters. But given the circumstances, myself and other voters are likely to give the administration a lot of leash to make policy and implementation on security. Currently, that leash is indicated by a 70% approval of the American populace of the measures Bush has taken with regard to terrorism.

Anyway, even if it's difficult to measure, I would be interested in hearing what you believe these costs are as you look at American society. From my perspective, many people idealize American society and run roughshod over the fact that bad groupthink has always been a feature of American political life. This is so, even if in comparison to the political lives of other countries it might be more infrequent. For instance, there was more bad groupthink during Gulf War I than during the troubles over the last couple of years.

saoshyant: Even if only a portion of the hijackers were here because of visa abuse, the political fact is that this attack happened in large part because of visa abuse. This is clear when you remember that one of the hijackers obtained a visa renewal a half year after he did his deed.

But visas in particular and immigration in general are systems that were never meant, funded, nor designed to run well. This odd situation is due to the fact that the American public is hopelessly split on these issues and has been that way for decades (maybe it has been throughout history, I don't know). The political solution is that the federal government doesn't check up on these things, nobody tells the federal government about it, and the federal government studiously avoids telling the people any details. For instance, try to find me a paper that includes line item immigration figures. You will spend all day trying to find it and you will come up empty handed. The closest thing you will get is a paper by the Census Bureau every ten years that says "oh, by the way, we have 10 million more undocumented immigrants in the US than we thought."

So citing American arrogance for 9/11 is very much off the mark. Rather, you should cite the American reliance on an honor system that doesn't aim to observe strict legalities. But this farce can't be sustained any more.

With regard to the differences between Iranian and Arab propensity for suicide terrorism, that doesn't seem like a useful path to go down, as others have pointed out. To an American voter, it's tough to distinguish between levels of extreme craziness. It's also tough to distinguish between government policies and the attitude of the people, since we don't seem to have as much of a divergence state-side.

Dan schmelzer:

1) Could you please cite the Census Bureau paper that you have cited. If there are 10,000,000 illegal aliens in the US today, then I suppose I really need to see it becaue the United States of America is an open society, democractic, and transparent (my following citation is an evidence to this belief), so if you have found that paper that you say there are 10,000,000 illegal aliens in the US.

1) I really wish that you responded my inquiry more directly. It really saddens me when I see someone who tries to represent average Joe/Jane of the United States of America (correct me if I am wrong, because perhaps you are just reflecting about yourself and you are not representing ohters) fails to answer my question directly (because I stereotypically tend to believe Americans are very forthright):

a) you have failed to directly respond to my question that the US intelligence agencies have failed to prevent the terrorist acts and the potentially could, which means they did not need an inter-agency to coordinate between them.

Why? Because according the Senate Intelligence Committee Report into the Attacks, INTRA-AGENCY flaws (I read it as arrogance and ignorance that arose out of a sense of over-self-confidence and false sense invincibility), convinced some senior ranking officers in the FBI to completely disregard the warnings of the sources available to them:

IN FACT THE US SENATE SELECT COMMITTE CITES 11 INSTANCES THAT COULD ALARM THE INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS AND THEY VIRTUALLY SAT ON THEM MY FRIEND!

B) I assume (and I could be wrong) that English is your first language so please go to the following and read pages 200-215 of the report (errata edition in full):

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/24jul20031400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf

The general website is:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/911.html

The Senate Intelligence Committe web site's citation is:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/pubs108.htm

C)My friend I am not commi-liberal and I do not cite Z-Magazine or Counter-Punch or etc. I have cited the AVERAGE US VOTERS' DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES' PUBLICATION:

Page 349 of the above report clearly indicates that the problems do not necessarily lie in lack of co-ordination but the fact that the agencies themselves had not put enough emphasis on prevention. Further I refer you to the first 33 pages of the report, which I also concludes that there were significant incident that the respective agencies failed to address, within their own jurisdictions.

In fact, Is not this interesting that an agency like FBI that happens to arrest Moussaui (the so called last hijacker) and investigate everything about him, but not to inquire further as to what was about to happen?

Where does this ignorance come from? Arrogance, illiteracy, incompetence, not being patriotic enough, or simply being selfish and/or lazy? Well, the US congress has issued its own damning attack on the intelligence community in this regard, why should I bother further?!

And what is the result, a new air of paranoia that even fails to do proper screening even today!

Hence:

D) What do you say about this Chinese American Muslim guy who spent five years in Syria and was working in Guantanamo Base as an interperter seems to have been spying during the whole time that he was there?

My friend it seems this farce is being sustained for too long now.

Dear Dan,

Living only a few months in London, I've faced two "Terror Alert" both of them while waitng for an underground service.

Having experienced this little about terror (comparing to horrible situation of 9/11), I can feel your concerns as an American citizen to some extent.

But there is one point about the 70% approval that, I think, has been left unspoken in your comment: Is it not wise for this huge ratio of US population to trace the possible footprints of their own government in this tragedy? Then, devoting billions of dollars to security sector and yet investing(!) billions more to create more enemies might seem a bit unwise, specifically in the eyes of contented taxpayers!

(1) Here's a WaPo reference, showing that the federal government loses track of millions of people--or chooses not to learn of them in the first place--with the full cooperation of individual citizens and groups of citizens.

http://earthops.org/immigration/underestimated-2001.html

Please note that I didn't care much about these contradictions either. As long as the books were reconciled every 10 or 20 years by a citizenship amnesty, things were going fine by me. It didn't matter to me whether people overstayed their tourist visa and came to settle in the US.

(2) I only (and can only) represent myself, not the average Joe. Rereading my posts, I don't think that I put myself up as representing the average Joe, but did reference poll numbers to show what he thinks. It is true that I put in my comments to represent an American-bred, different view than many of those already put forward, because I thought it might be useful. But I think that it's unfair for you to foist the defense of the average American Joe on me.

I'll try to address directly in a separte post the operational facts that you are establishing, but honestly I'm not inclined to come to a conclusion about them in a short time-frame. Suffice to say, before being presented with these facts, it was my understanding that the visa system had a lot to do with enabling the 9/11 attacks. If I'm wrong, then I guess this isn't so surprising, since this report only came out only recently, and in the meantime my thoughts and the general political dialogue have proceded apace.

Btw, I have much more confidence in the rigor of the security clearences given out for national security positions, since I have a lot of friends who went through the process. Because of this, among other reasons, I'm inclined to think about the case of the interpreter separately.

Mehrdad: Perhaps I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I went one step further and blamed Americans themselves (and myself) for the past lax security attitudes in the federal government. Would the American people have accepted a third-rate military like we accepted a third-rate visa and immigration system? Not at all, and that's why we don't have a third-rate military and we have a third-rate visa and immigration system.

As for creating more enemies with our tax dollars, personally I don't think we can do much about it while having an active foreign policy. It comes with the territory. But I guess this is getting slightly off the topic at hand.

Something that missing in these arguments:
1. Every country has the right to issue or deny a visa to citizens of other countries, and has the right to do it in its own way.

2. What bothers me most is the process of fingerprinting, taking mugshots and several hours of interrogation upon entering the country. It shows that the goverment does not trust its own system of screening and intelligence and its state department officials. This means several months of screening and background cheking before issuing visa is nothing but a show. Or may be the fingerprinting story is designed to humilate an individual because of his ethnic or religious background.
3. Issuing visa and fingerprinting, etc. upom arrival in this system means you are guilty (or a criminal) even if the opposite is proved.

Senior Grad-

Well the point I am trying to make is that in Fahmideh's case, the government here may have simply made up a story or just blown it out of all proportion. I wonder who has actually related the incident? Were there any eyewitnesses? Not likely, because in that case they might have tried to teach him how to use grenades, rather than standing back and having a good laugh as the poor bastard hit the tank with grenades under his belly. Or was it the Iraqi military who reported Fahmideh's heroics??!!
Maybe it was Khomeini himself (or his ghost… you never know with these mullahs) who witnessed and recorded the scene?
Putting two and two together, something stinks about the whole story, don't you think so?

The answer to your question is a big fat NO, there aren't any Iranians who would blow themselves up for any cause. Twenty years ago, thousands of Baseejis were ready to walk the minefields and get blown up just to clear the way for a ground offensive-that was how Bostan and a few other cities were liberated. But a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since, and it would be naïve to expect anything like that from the youth of today. Call it fanaticism or what you like, but the Baseejis had an unshakeable belief that they were fighting for a noble cause. Today there is simply no belief of any sort among the people; the whole society is falling apart ….

So much so that even those soldiers, Baseejis and other champions of lost causes are probably regretting their act now: They supposedly gave their lives to preserve our dignity, independence, freedom, Islam, ..... which we simply don't have today. I’m not for one moment questioning their courage and lofty intentions, but looking at the final result…. Oh dear oh dear oh dear...

Ali Mahani

Sorry that I failed to response in a timely fashion, Ali Mahani. I was on a vacation from Free Thoughts. Whoever you are, you are a very smart kid, Ali. I cannot deny it. It's just too bad you have read too much Sadegh Hedayat. ;-)

I agree with you that the whole story of Hossein Fahmideh may have been just pure baloney, or the government may have made a mountain out of a mole hill, so to speak, to lubricate the wheels of its war propaganda machine (I'm just making up idioms as I go, so don't take these seriously). What I specifically didn't like about your comment was how you talk about the "poor bastard"! There have been many victims (victims of their own youth, idealism, ignorance, blind faith, you name it) during the Iran-Iraq war. I don't think you were ever with them under the Iraqi fire. You have not been ordered to go on the mine field, or be shot. At least you have seen in the movies. In any case, I don't think you have any right to judge them, let alone call them names. Don't you agree?

P.S. And you write quite well. Could it be that Hedayat's soul, the soul of that "idiot", has been reincarnated in you? Well, if that is the case you must be 50 or something. ;-)

It can't be denied that the US immigration policies are still one of the most humane in the world, despite all the noise made about them. Just compare it with the Europeans' -look at the german refugee camps for example.
However dear Dan, the point is that the visa problems for iranian students did not (pre sept 11) and do not still address the security issues. In many cases they just have no basis. 10 students go to the same embassy the same day, 6 get a visa 4 don't. Why not? what was the difference? nothing real. It seems actually as though the counsoler has decided on giving visas only to a certain percentage of applicants and is just filling his daily ration.
There are many such tales if you ask Iranian students. Even today the main issue to address in an interview is your financial status and the main strategy is to bring whatever document of your or your relative's properties in Iran or your proof of the sickness of your mother and the like to show that you would be compelled to return after your study and the like...the only thing that doesn't matter seems to be the security issues.
Indeed one of the main factors for September 11 was the immigration and visa policies...in the time where an Iranian student, who usually hated fundamentalism to his/her bones had to go through a lot of trouble to get a visa, many of the highjackers and their likes travelled to and from the US , took flight lessons there ... as though it was their 'aunt's home' (as we say in Persian) just because they had money, or the countries they came from had (appparently) good relations with the US! and as far as I hear nothing much has changed in this regard yet.

Finally Ali Mahani, I agree that Fahmideh story sucks!
But what you said about heroism of the basijees troubles me. there is NO glory in fanaticism. What they were willingly dying for (and expected others to die for as well, something that must make you think about their moral values!) are the same ideals that have taken our freedoms, our youth and our lives in the past 25 years.
If you are looking for real heroes in that damn war, look at the army officers, pilots and soldiers that hated this regime, that were even mistreated by it and yet fought for what they held dear , for the people and their land.
They were the true heroes not those filthy bearded bastards!

My dear Senior Grad

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. “Poor bastard” is an idiomatic expression with a meaning similar to that of “poor thing” or “poor fellow”; at any rate it’s a jocular phrase used for showing sympathy and doesn’t imply being born on the wrong side of the blanket.

And no, I don’t regard myself as Hedayat or Idiot reincarnated: I am a good few years younger than Hedayat and a good few years older than Fahmideh… unless you mean that famous Idiot by Dostoyevsky (Prince Myshkin) …LOL

--To AIS

Well I never meant to glorify the current regime or the principles it claims to stand for; but let’s give the devil its due: At one time Iran was invaded by Iraqi troops. Some people simply packed up and fled the country, others cited all sorts of excuses under the sun to avoid going to the frontline (this isn’t our war, I have a family to think about, I am busy right now…)….AND there were people who had the guts to take up arms and defend this land. It would be unkind to call them ‘filthy bearded bastards” as you did; not least because it wasn’t them who started the war or dragged it out for 8 years (some of them were so young they didn’t have any beard on their faces). So we should reserve that type of epithet for the dirty, scheming politicians who cooked up the whole war business.
I have tremendous respect for those pilots and army officers, but you see the war with Iraq was essentially a ground war and winning conflicts of this type is very much dependent on the grit and determination of individual soldiers (or what they call cannon-fodder). As Tolstoy points out in his famous novel War and Peace, the final result of any war has more to do with the will and morale of individual soldiers than any plans and strategies designed by generals and senior officers.

What I find most filthy and despicable is the all-too-familiar logic of politicians who use wars to establish or perpetuate their dominance over the masses, and in this sense, there isn’t any great difference between Khomeini, Saddam, Bush, Hitler, etc…

Ali Mahani

Ali Mahani,

If you're 33, as you claim to be, then you are almost Fahmideh's age! Just imagine. If he had survived the war, who knows, he might very well be among us writing comments for Free Thoughts.

AIS: I think it's difficult to judge how effective the system with regard to security specifically for Iranian people. I will easily believe the worst, but we haven't had any 9/11-style attacks from Iranians, now have we? :-)

Of course, this goes both ways, in that it supports the argument that Iranians are not predisposed toward these attacks. But how can accuse The Great Satan of being paranoid. ;-)

In any event, there are many reasons other than security why a visa might be denied or approved. Your post doesn't seem to entertain that fact.

To make clearer, your post seems to discount the possibility that the multiple-purposed nature of the visa system could be part of a good overall system for security.

Ali Mahani:
It is easy to blame the politicians -in this case the mullahs - for everything, but they wouldn't have had the power to enforce their policies without fanatic idiots doing it for them.To tell you the truth I prefer some the prgmatic mullahs to their idealist followers anyway. and in case you forgot the real war ended after the Iraq asked for cease fire and Saudi Arabia ....
The rest of it was an ideological war for liberationg Iraq and Qods ...and the world!
As I said before, I see no glory in fanaticisms. And if you really need to know I have a much deeper respect for those who fled or brought up excuses than those fanatics who went to war for their paradise.
Besides if you think Iraq could have annexed parts of Iran to itself without the international community doing anything about it or just accepting it you're wrong. But s long as we had fanatics to do it for them and they could sell missiles, why bother? so please stop this 'mennat' business of how the bassij etc. saved us all...blah blah blah!

My God, now basijees are supposed to have fought for the love of Iran! What next, ten years from now, the Ansar-e-hezbollah claiming it was doing all it did for democracy and liberal causes, and just later some bad politicians took advantage of them and misguided them? how far should this farce go?!

and putting Bush with Hitler is so unfair-plese have some decency.
(And I was surprised you forgot Sharon, then it would have be just so typical)

Dan Schmezler:
The problems facing Iranians and iranian students was and is out of proportion compared to other nationalities, without ANY reasonable grounds and sound logic.

Senior Grad

Yes in that sense Fahmideh and I are about the same age, but problem is, that fellow didn't live to the age of 33: he died when he was 13.

And what's your obssession with my age, for Christ's sake? What makes you think I am at least 50 years old?

Ali Mahani:

I just think you are more mature than your age.

:->

AIS: As much as I would like to agree with you, newspaper accounts like the following lead me to believe that extra vigilence is warranted with regard to Iran.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21493-2003Oct13.html

The same visa problems existed before Al Qaida had a camp in Iran. Besides I told you of how people are given and refused visas from a group of people who get interviewd in a day, of twins to only one of whom visa was given,husbands and wives who get only one visa, people who are denied visa in one embassy and then get it in another. Believe me, it's a hell of a mess!

A side issue about the article: I am really frustrated with this difference that is still being made between Khatami people and the 'hardliners'. When are people gonna accept that they are all in this together?!
How come Khatami had power over security forces in the case of chain killings of intellectuals? that was a real competition for power, that's why.
Don't you people in the US see that IRI is playing with you by keeping these AlQaida members in front of your eyes but always a step back in the same way they played in 1979 and 1980 with the hostages? They know your state department want these people badly and they are playing hide and seek to secure their places in power. Just read your state department's statements about their dealings with Iranain officials. It's pathetic!

would you teach me your language

i need to ask the american embassy in abudhabi about my visa. i lost my passport while im trying to renew it.and i got a new passport but i dont have my visa printed on the new passport.so i need to know how can i get a new visa print because its essential for me ,im in houston texas.i need it to get a driver license and an identification card.im afraid if i go to abudhabi i wont be able to go back to houston.so plz if someoen can help me with this problem write me back at my email (libro22@hotmail.com)

"I wonder what kind of stupid process it is that takes 6 months for a visa?! These guys are really paranoid!"

Yes, well when 3000 INNOCENT people are killed in one fell swoop by Islamofacist militants, many of whom who were "students" I guess that is the source of the paranoia.

Why don't you all apply to study in Islamic countries if coming to the US is such a pain? Try Saudi Arabia, they just LOVE visitors and give visas very freely. ;-)

A Jewish survivor of the Holocausts once said: "If someone says they are going to kill you—believe them."

We believe that some Muslims want to kill us–regardless of whether they are Arabs or Persians or Malaysians or whatever sorts of Muslims. While all Muslims are not terrorists, ALL Islamic terrorists are Muslims. And let's be honest, Iran did, and still does sponsor Islamic terror just like Saudi Arabia.

Too bad that this little problem of Islamic origin inflicts hardship on "honest" students. Go complain to the Islamofascists NOT to the US! I'm sure that Osama and your ayatollahs would be happy to hear your petitions.

Often when one speaks to Muslims—higher degree students, scientists, even Ph.Ds they say something like this, "Well I am glad to be here, but Islam comes first. I hope I don't have to fight against America some day, but if I do I will because I want Islam to rule the world just like it says in the Qu'ran." That sort of attitude puts Americans off and makes us rather "paranoid,” given all the attacks we have suffered at the hands of Islam in recent years. We want to keep our secular democracy, thank you very much!

There are plenty of non-Islamic students, who want to come to the US —we'd rather have people whose religions don't insist: "death to the infidel!" and whose clerics don't incite murder of non-Muslims every Friday. We’d rather have people who respect and value our Western way of life and our freedoms and don’t want to use these against us.

It is not up to the US to change our attitude on Islamic terrorists. It is up to moderate Muslims to rein them in.

You have your work cut out for you—get to it instead of blaming the victims go catch your Islamofascist criminals—because, those people are putting the whole world, not just your educations, into jeopardy.

In the meantime, don't think you are the only ones who have to wait. Get into line like everyone else. Each and every time we Westerners have to wait in an interminable flight security line or have our bodies searched by some moose of a security agent or have all of our stuff unpacked and thrown on the floor and then have to run for a flight— We thank Islam.

Why should your lives be any easier than ours? ;-)

Wessie

Just a note Wessie, to many Iranians, but not all, but many indeed, Islam does not come first. It doesn't even come.

How many Iranians have you met that told you that? As an Iranian I feel ashamed to be categorized based on my parents' religion and not based on what I am -at least what I think I am!

If you talk like this, don't be surprised if "small time devils" like Osama call for death to infidels; it is exactly "the open-mindedness" that differentiates between the true devotees to a democratic society and believers in an organized religion like some factions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Anyway I hope that you would never regret the current US policies, policies that I hope, at least might stop terrorist attacks on the US soil... I really hope, but I keep my reasons to myself for that.

Loose Can:

I find the above post very confusing. Could you re-phrase it so that it is comprehensible?

You appear to be saying two things at once. You seem to believe that one cannot be religious and democratic at the same time, while I believe that Christianity and most other religions EXCEPT Islam are completely compatible with democracy and pluralism.

BTW—I do regret many of the policies of the current administration. I believe they will do little but encourage more Islamic terrorism.

Wessie

"some factions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity": "Factions" Ms. Wessie not all of them. Even now there are "Christians" that when they see a Jew on the public transit, they would inform him that "servants are not allowed on the bus" and that was witnessed in Switzerland only 2 years ago.

I can easily put all "Abrahamic" religions in one basket. In fact Islam is so close to the "Telmud"ic Judaism that even Muslims get astonished by the similarities. And that tips a lot about the origin of Islam...

Please look at my wording: I was talking about the "organized religion"s not personal or moral religions or "ways of life".

How much do you know about Islam anyway? Have you looked at any modern scholarly text on Islam? I am not talking the ones written by leftist ideologues, the ones written by conservative scholars, and there are many of those... and then I have to add [contradicting myself of course] that you will come back to the original conclusion that Islam in its contemporary form, is the least compatible of all religions with democracy and pluralism! Nonetheless I get a feeling that your statement is not very well grounded; that's all, I agree with you in that!

Wessie, as the author of the post I just received your comment in email and was astonished at the degree of hostility you show against Muslims in your last paragraph. I understand that many Americans [and in fact people from around the world and even in Iran] are upset with Muslims, but I think helping fellow human beings regardless of their religion and despite diplomatic hostility is an act of courage not stupidity.

By the way there is no one living in tents from the previous Earthquake in Iran, well... I am from the region and have never heard such a thing. However, instead of encouraging hostilities in the region by extending their military arm, the Iranian government COULD have done something about Earthquake prevention.

Please do not generalize without impunity and I hope that this comment is not misinterpreted.

Kaveh et al:

Wessie's claims are based upon a lack of understanding as to how many muslims have already started viewing the Koran in terms other than the ones shaped by reactionary and extremist zeal.

Today, those who believe that the Koran cannot be read ahistorically are many. The unfortunate fact is that they cannot express themselves in ways that the radicals who are in power can.

In his account, Wessie appears to be unware that amongst many Muslims the word of the Koran cannot be read narrowly. In fact, from the followers of Soroush in Iran, to the followers of Hassan Hanafi in Egypt, and the followers of the modernist democratic movement of Islam in Indonesia, a reformist wave has been very active in challenging the traditional readings of the Koran.

If some visible and violent few have used a Wahabi and traditionalist reading of the Koran to commit inhuman atrocities, one should be reminded that they are not welcome in the lands where they are preaching such hate. One should not forget that the "Judeo-Christian" tradition was capable of creating cults as violent to women and children as that of the Davidians, that was crushed by the FBI, or Timothy McVeigh.

Modernist readings of the Koran can now be found the Supreme Constitutional Court of Egypt's famous ruling on the Veil, that finds covering the face and head not "a must".

Ayatollah Saanei, ironically a former revolutionary mullah, today preaches that men and women are equal in Islam to the point that women can assume the position of highest religious authorities. Regardless of all the talk and the claims concerning the incentives and honesty of such verdicts, one thing is clear: Islam and Muslims cannot be treated in highly aggregate terms and overgeneralizations do not correspond to a majority of the Muslims' true feelings.

One thing that Wessie has failed to address in his polemic is that "subjecting others to humiliation" is rejected by all secular and religious visions of humanity. The Canadian government and Sweden, specifically Anna Lindh the late Foreign Minister of Sweden, in different foreign policy statements warned about the dramatic effects of "humiliation", the US chose not to scale down the rhetoric nor the active humiliation of the potentially undesirable others.

On a final note, Wessie should be reminded that the Americans are so blinded by the people's birth place and so blindly following and discriminating against those born in Muslim countries that:

The American Immigration officials, a few years ago, put the Visa application of Shaul Mofaz, who was just fired by Ehud Barak as the Israeli Defence Force's Chief of Staff, on hold for three weeks just because he was born in Iran. If Wessie does not believe me I would be able to disclose to him my source.

It is easy for the brain-washed and those moved by emotion to over-generalize and stereotype.

Wessie,
do you seriously believe that body search in airports is of the same order of magnitude as being condemned to live in a prison like from every side just for having been born there?
What would you do if you happened to be born an Iranian yourself instead of an American, or the other nationality you had before becoming American? I'm really curious, can you put yourself in our shoes for a moment and see what it feels like? Can you? Did you happen to choose your birth place out of your cunning vision somehow? pardon the sarcasm, but some of what you are saying here just automaticaly brings it on.

“do you seriously believe that body search in airports is of the same order of magnitude as being condemned to live in a prison like from every side just for having been born there?”

Iranian Student: I believe that every people get the government they deserve.

As to your mean-spirited remark about the “choosing” my birth place. . . You have no idea what sort of trial I might have gone through to ultimately end up in the U.S. Don’t assume that your suffering is the only suffering there has ever been! The s